1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 1 2 SUPREME COURT COMMISSION ON INDIGENT DEFENSE 3 4 5 6 APRIL 26, 2002 7 9:30 a.m. 8 9 10 11 12 Sutherland, Asbill & Brennan 999 Peachtree Street, N.E. 13 Suite 2800 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 14 15 16 17 18 19 REPORTED BY: DIANE KING, CSR, B-1957 20 21 22 23 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 125 COLONADE AVENUE, SUITE 1-B 24 ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30331 (404) 344-7855 25 2 1 MEMBERS PRESENT: 2 MR. CHARLES R. MORGAN, Chairperson 3 PROFESSOR PAUL KURTZ MS. PHYLLIS HOLMEN 4 MR. JERRY GRIFFIN REPRESENTATIVE PAUL HOLMES 5 MS. FLORA DEVINE MR. C. WILSON DUBOSE 6 MR. CHARLES T. LESTER, JR. MR. WILLIAM IDE 7 JUDGE A. HARRIS ADAMS JUDGE STANLEY F. BIRCH 8 9 GUESTS PRESENT: 10 MR. MICHAEL C. KENDRICK, AOC MS. EMILY W. WARD, BELLSOUTH 11 MS. KENDALL BUTTERWORTH, BELLSOUTH MS. JULIE COOK, BELLSOUTH 12 MR. JOHN TYLER MS. SANDRA WITTY 13 MS. SHERRICA FRANCISCO MR. ALEXANDER RUNDLET, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN 14 RIGHTS JUSTICE CAROL HUNSTEIN, GEORGIA SUPREME COURT 15 MR. RICHARD RING MS. MARION RAE CLEIN 16 MS. SARA TOTONCHI MS. CHARLOTTA NORBY 17 MS. TRACEY SURRENCY MS. GINNY LOONEY 18 MS. SARAH SMITH MS. TRESHA L. EAGLIN 19 MS. COURTNEY BELL MS. LAURA FINGER 20 MR. STEPHEN B. BRIGHT, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 21 MR. PAUL KIM MS. JOAN NALLS 22 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 3 1 PRESENTATION: 2 INDIGENT DEFENSE COUNSEL 3 MR. GERALD P. WORD, CONTRACT DEFENDER, CARROLL 4 COUNTY 5 MS. KIMBERLY J. EIDSON, INDIGENT DEFENSE ADMINISTRATOR, CARROLL COUNTY 6 UPDATE ON THE SPANGENBERG GROUP'S REPORT 7 MS. MAREA BEEMAN, VICE PRESIDENT, THE SPANGENBERG 8 GROUP 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Good morning, everybody. 3 I hope everyone has noticed that I've been given a 4 gavel and I've been given instructions on how to 5 use it. 6 I want to welcome everybody here. I thought 7 that we would start off the morning as we 8 traditionally do with introducing everyone who is 9 here. 10 I'm Charles Morgan, the chair of the 11 Commission. And why don't we go around and have 12 the Commissioners introduce themselves and then 13 we'll go to the audience. 14 MR. DUBOSE: Okay. Wilson DuBose. 15 MR. KURTZ: I'm Paul Kurtz. I'm the 16 reporter. 17 MR. GRIFFIN: Jerry Griffin. 18 JUDGE ADAMS: Harris Adams from Cobb County. 19 MS. HOLMEN: Phyllis Holmen with Georgia 20 Legal Services. 21 MR. IDE: Bill Ide from Atlanta. 22 MS. DEVINE: Flora Devine, Cobb County. 23 MS. KOPP: I'm Emily Kopp from Georgia 24 Public Radio. 25 MS. BUTTERWORTH: I'm Kendall Butterworth KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 5 1 with BellSouth. 2 MS. COOK: I'm Julie Cook with BellSouth. 3 MR. BRIGHT: I'm Steve Bright from here in 4 Atlanta, Southern Center for Human Rights. 5 MR. RUNDLETT: Alex Rundlett, Southern 6 Center for Human Rights. 7 MS. TOTONCHI: Sara Tontonchi, with 8 Georgians for Equal Justice. 9 MS. BEAMAN: Marea Beeman with the 10 Spangenberg Group. 11 MS. LOONEY: Ginny Looney with the Georgia 12 Supreme Court. 13 MR. KENDRICK: Michael Kendrick with the 14 Administrative Office of the Courts. 15 MR. MARTIN: Jerry Martin, Administrative 16 Office of the Courts. 17 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: And we'll save on our two 18 speakers for just a minute because Mr. DuBose is 19 going to introduce them, but I think we have a 20 couple of other guests in the back, also. 21 MS. MUBLER: Debra Mubler, Georgia Indigent 22 Defense. 23 MS. MCMILLAN: I'm Marianne McMillan with 24 the Georgia Advocacy Commission of the Indigent 25 Defense Council. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 6 1 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Thank you. Well, I'd like 2 to ask our guests to please come on up and if you 3 all would take a seat up front here we would 4 appreciate it. 5 At this point in time I'd like to ask Wilson 6 DuBose if he would introduce our guests, please. 7 MR. DUBOSE: Thank you, Charles. Some of 8 you may recognize Jerry Word from our meeting in 9 March at Long, Aldridge. 10 Jerry is one of the contract defenders in 11 Carroll County. He was gracious enough to give 12 his allotted slot to someone who had come in late 13 in the meeting in March and only had a few minutes 14 to speak at the end of that meeting. 15 We invited him back in case he had more to 16 say and he said he did have more to say, and so we 17 are glad to have Jerry back with us today. 18 He is a member of the State Bar Board of 19 Governors and also a member of the Georgia 20 Indigent Defense Council in that part of the 21 state, Carroll County. 22 He has with him today Kim Eidson, who is the 23 administrator of the Indigent Defense Program in 24 Carroll County, and Jerry is going to introduce 25 Kim in just a second. Jerry. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 7 1 MR. WORD: Thank you. Thank you. Ladies 2 and gentlemen of the Commission I spoke, I guess, 3 two months ago, and as any good lawyer, when you 4 get a chance for rebuttal you always want to think 5 of other things to say, and so I actually got cut 6 a little bit short and I appreciate the 7 opportunity to come back, and I decided the best 8 thing that I could do is bring with me our 9 indigent defense administrator, Kim Eidson. 10 Kim has been full-time with Carroll County 11 as the IDA for going on a year now, I think, and 12 before that she was on a part-time salary, but 13 it's really a full-time position and Carroll 14 County has made her that, and I want to let her 15 speak on early intervention because I think that 16 is a key to any public defender system, whether it 17 be contract, or public defender, or an appointed 18 system. I think that is key. 19 Just so I can refresh your memory, Carroll 20 County has a contract defender system. We have 21 five contract defenders who share the contract of 22 felonies. Our average caseload for last year was 23 104 felonies per contract defender. I didn't have 24 those exact numbers the last time and so Kim 25 looked them up for me. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 8 1 We, in addition to that, handled between the 2 five defenders, 38 probation revocations, but a 3 number of those were collateral to the new 4 charges, and so we probably really only have about 5 110 or so cases per contract defender. 6 The State Court also has a contract defender 7 and she probably knows those numbers better than I 8 do, and so that defender handles all of the State 9 Court caseload. And with that, I'm going to turn 10 it over to Kim Eidson and let her talk about the 11 issues on early intervention. 12 MS. EIDSON: Good morning. As Jerry said, 13 my name is Kim Eidson and I am the IDA in Carroll 14 County. I've been with the public defender 15 program for 11 years in Carroll County, but 16 finally last year they made me full-time. It is a 17 full-time job. We -- 18 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Excuse me. I'm sorry to 19 interrupt you, but our reporter over here is 20 trying to listen to you and so I'll try to stay 21 out of your way here. 22 MS. EIDSON: Our Magistrate Court goes to 23 the jail everyday, seven days a week. That is how 24 the indigent people in the jail get the 25 qualification sheets. They are given out through KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 9 1 the Magistrate Court. 2 If there is someone charged with a 3 high-profile crime such as a murder, or some kind 4 of child molestation, or a rape, they call me and 5 I go to the jail immediately. Normally on a basis 6 like that I contact one of the public defenders 7 and they go with me and so I'll have an attorney 8 on hand to immediately go ahead and talk with the 9 Defendant. 10 I make sure that the caseloads are divided 11 equally among the five public defenders so, you 12 know, if we have a murder come in today that 13 attorney will not get another murder, you know, 14 for five cases. 15 I think that's very important because the 16 high-profile cases take a lot more time than, you 17 know, a simple crime. We have five very good, 18 qualified, contract attorneys. I go to court 19 approximately two to three times a week. Any 20 non-jury day I am there, and so if someone is in 21 jail and somehow been missed they are 22 automatically allowed to talk with me to see if 23 they want a public defender, or if they want to go 24 forward that day with their plea, or continue 25 their case. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 10 1 Any time we have a calendar call I am there. 2 We have a very good Judge, Judge Aubry Duffy in 3 Carroll County and he lets anybody that wants to 4 speak with me speak with me before they do 5 anything. 6 A lot of times during the trials I'm there a 7 lot to help the attorneys. When a case comes in I 8 automatically can tell if they have a bond or 9 don't have a bond. I automatically notify the 10 attorneys, and a lot of times go ahead and file 11 the bond motions for the attorneys. 12 We have preliminaries every other Friday in 13 Carroll County, and so if someone decides today at 14 the first appearance hearing they don't want a 15 public defender then they can hire an attorney. 16 Within two weeks I know if they have been able to 17 hire an attorney or not been able to hire an 18 attorney so that I can speak with them that soon 19 and find out at that point if they do want a 20 public defender, and if they do we get them 21 qualified that day and the case is continued until 22 the next preliminary hearing and the attorney is 23 assigned. 24 It is a lot better than the system that we 25 have had before because we're not waiting until KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 11 1 arraignment. We hardly ever get to arraignment 2 anymore and there be somebody that's in jail that 3 does not have a public defender, now that I have a 4 full-time office at the courthouse annex right 5 across the street from the courthouse right above 6 the DA's office. 7 People are able to locate me easier. They 8 know where I'm at. They come to me quite often. 9 I get lots of phone calls from people that are on 10 the street even saying I think I need an attorney. 11 They are given an appointment to come in and see 12 me, we qualify them, they get an attorney prior to 13 ever getting to arraignment. 14 And so I think our program has come a long 15 way and my full-time position, I think, is very 16 important with the contract defenders because I'm 17 always there. Everybody knows who to call whereas 18 before, you know, they might call Jerry and it 19 really not be, you know, Jerry's time for a case 20 or something, and so now they automatically call 21 me and I just, you know, tell them it is Jerry's 22 time off, you know, get in there as soon as 23 possible. 24 MR. WORD: If I can clarify something that 25 Kim said. There are three opportunities, I think, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 12 1 to ask for a lawyer early on and one is the first 2 appearance, which is usually within 24 hours of 3 arrest, and if they ask for one at that point they 4 get one appointed immediately. 5 And so then if sometime between then and the 6 preliminary hearing they notify the jail that they 7 need a public defender then Kim will get them 8 qualified prior to the preliminary hearing. 9 And then the third opportunity, every two 10 weeks we do have the preliminary hearings and 11 occasionally somebody who says they're going to 12 hire an attorney will, at that point, say I wasn't 13 able to hire an attorney and they'll have one 14 appointed then. 15 And so the longest time somebody usually 16 goes is two weeks. The shortest time is 24 hours. 17 And the only reason that we can get one after 24 18 hours is if they initially declined the attorney 19 and said that they were going to hire their own 20 attorney, and so if they request an attorney right 21 then they will get one within 24 hours. 22 MR. KURTZ: And did I understand you to say 23 that even earlier than that if it's a high-profile 24 case you might get called immediately after the 25 arrest? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 13 1 MS. EIDSON: As soon as the Magistrate Judge 2 knows that whoever is on his list he will call me. 3 MR. KURTZ: So it may not even be 24 hours? 4 MS. EIDSON: Correct. 5 MR. GRIFFIN: Clear up who is qualified for 6 indigent defense. 7 MS. EIDSON: It is based on the poverty 8 level for the State of Georgia. The numbers go up 9 every February. Currently -- do you want me to 10 tell you the guidelines? And this is going to be 11 roughly off the top of my head. 12 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes, ma'am. I've gotten 13 confused. I've been reading a lot of those 14 numbers and I'm confused. 15 MR. KURTZ: He wants to know if he 16 qualifies, right. 17 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't need one right now. 18 MS. EIDSON: $760 comes to mind for a family 19 of one. You add approximately $275 for each 20 additional family member. 21 MR. KURTZ: That's a month? 22 MS. EIDSON: A month, yes. You take off 23 child support, day care can be taken off, medical 24 expenses that's not covered by insurance, somebody 25 has cancer, extraordinary medical expenses can KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 14 1 come off the top. 2 MS. HOLMEN: Taxes, gross or net? 3 MS. EIDSON: It's net. 4 MS. HOLMEN: $760 net? 5 MS. EIDSON: Yes. And those may be just a 6 little off, but it's based on the poverty level 7 for the State of Georgia. 8 MR. GRIFFIN: And it goes up how much per -- 9 MS. EIDSON: Around $275. 10 JUDGE BIRCH: When does an individual who 11 might qualify, do they get a sheet, or an 12 informational sheet telling them so that they can 13 determine whether they might be qualified? 14 MS. EIDSON: Yes, sir. There is an 15 application and it comes from the Georgia Indigent 16 Defense Council that helps them to determine who 17 is qualified and who is not qualified. 18 JUDGE BIRCH: When is that done? 19 MS. EIDSON: It's given to them at their 20 first appearance hearing within 24 hours of their 21 arrest, and that's done seven days a week here in 22 Carroll County. 23 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Can I ask that you send a 24 copy of that as well as any other materials that 25 may be of interest to the Commission? Published KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 15 1 guidelines, or memoranda, or other things that 2 relate to this. 3 MS. EIDSON: Yes, sir. 4 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: That would be really a big 5 help. Phyllis. 6 MS. HOLMEN: I think three questions, but I 7 think there are some others. How quickly do the 8 lawyers generally go see the clients in jail after 9 they're appointed? Do you get complaints about 10 that? 11 And then, thirdly, once the Defendant is 12 released from jail, presumably on bond, do you 13 play a role in keeping track of the Defendants so 14 that -- we have had complaints from lawyers that 15 the Defendants are just scattered in the wind. 16 MS. EIDSON: My attorneys, if I can speak 17 particularly for Jerry's firm, he and Ms. Marilyn 18 Simmons are two of my public defenders and they 19 have a law associate that goes to the jail 20 practically every day. 21 And so as soon as they are given files they 22 are out there. I mean, they're there less than 23 probably three days upon getting the file. Most 24 of my -- I can't say it's a definite time frame. 25 I would say in a week of getting the files the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 16 1 majority of my public defenders are there being 2 seen, and that varies whether we're in trial, or 3 court, or what's going on. 4 Now, as far as people that are out on bond, 5 there is a sheet attached to the application, and 6 that sheet is supposed to stay with the Defendant, 7 and it tells them my phone number and to contact 8 me immediately upon making bond. 9 Sometimes they're still attached to the 10 application and so -- but I -- Carroll County, 11 after 11 years, everybody knows who to contact 12 now. I mean, as soon as I got into my full-time 13 office I went around to each different department, 14 gave them my business cards. The jail now has 15 access directly to me. They can call me directly 16 where used to they had to get somebody else to 17 call me and that type thing. The phones inside 18 the jail are now allowed to call me directly. 19 JUDGE ADAMS: So this sheet is given to them 20 at the time they're booked? 21 MS. EIDSON: It's given to them at their 22 first appearance hearing by the Magistrate Judge. 23 JUDGE ADAMS: The next day. 24 MS. EIDSON: Within 24 hours of arrest. 25 JUDGE BIRCH: When you all initially set KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 17 1 this up, did you have organizations that were 2 already in existence that you looked at, or did 3 you all just create this yourselves? 4 I know Hall County, because I was involved 5 in it many years ago, have the same sort of intake 6 system set up. Reduced jail population was the 7 initial, frankly, focus of it, but can you help us 8 with that. 9 MR. WORD: I would say it probably evolved 10 as we looked at the same issues of how do we 11 reduce jail population? And how do we move people 12 through the system? 13 That's, frankly, how we were able to 14 convince the county to go to a full-time 15 administrator was that very issue of who do you 16 call? How do they get the forms? And so it kind 17 of evolved. 18 I don't think we looked at any particular 19 system, but it evolved as a way to -- 20 JUDGE BIRCH: Did you sort of pitch that as 21 a cost savings mechanism to try to reduce jail 22 population and show them the dollars and cents and 23 all of that sort of thing? 24 MR. WORD: Exactly. We pitched it to the 25 county that way, and I was telling some of the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 18 1 Commission members early this morning, one of my 2 Commissioners I went to speak to him earlier this 3 week and he said that they looked, you know, far 4 and wide to find a job description and in a now 5 Republican county. 6 He said it was not a popular job that he was 7 creating to help indigent defense, but we were 8 still able to pitch it with a cost savings and I 9 think it actually has saved the county money. 10 You know, we moved people through the system 11 much more quickly, much more efficiently than we 12 ever have, but it's evolved over the last 10 13 years. 14 JUDGE BIRCH: All right. 15 MR. LESTER: Jerry, do you have a pretrial 16 release program? 17 MR. WORD: We do not have a pretrial release 18 program. Our biggest problem we have is trying to 19 get people released on bond, especially people who 20 have gotten technical probation violations and 21 things like that that get held for that aren't 22 qualified for lawyers, you know, technically. 23 Appointed lawyers they will be held for 24 sometimes, you know, two and three and four weeks 25 without a petition being filed and nobody KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 19 1 releasing them on bond, and so we do have a 2 problem that we're trying to deal with with that. 3 MR. LESTER: I seen in Gainesville one of 4 the big advantages that they had was they had a 5 very effective pretrial release program. 6 MR. WORD: And that would be something that 7 I think would benefit a lot of counties, including 8 Carroll, but right now we do not have that. 9 Basically, file your bond motion and make your 10 pitch. 11 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Is there an overcrowding 12 problem with the jail? 13 MR. WORD: There was. We built a brand new 14 jail because of it, but it's not full yet, but the 15 operative word is yet. We will have another 16 overcrowding problem within the next two years 17 probably. 18 MS. DEVINE: I wanted to change the subject 19 just little bit, but I don't want to prevent 20 anybody from following up on that. 21 I would like a little bit more information, 22 Jerry, about what is required to be qualified as 23 an attorney on your list. 24 MR. WORD: Flora, our Judges pretty well 25 make the determination of who's qualified based on KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 20 1 years of experience in criminal law. There is 2 no -- our county Commissioners tried to go to the 3 lowest bidder and the Judge vetoed the lowest 4 bidder and said no, we're going to the most 5 qualified lawyers, and once that fight was over 6 why we haven't had a problem with that. 7 The Judge pretty well, along with -- we have 8 a Tripartite Committee and the Judge and the 9 committee approved the lawyers as qualified. 10 And then Kim has been around long enough 11 that she also takes the initiative if there is a 12 case that she feels like one of the lawyers is not 13 experienced enough, or qualified on, that she will 14 usually call the Judge, or call me and say okay 15 I've got a question whether so-and-so is capable 16 of handling this murder case, and so is there a 17 problem with appointing someone else? And so 18 that's the way it's handled. 19 MS. DEVINE: And who's on the Tripartite 20 Committee? 21 MR. WORD: I'm on the committee, and there 22 is the county attorney that is the county's 23 representative, and then John Harris, who is with 24 the Tisinger law firm is the Bar's representative 25 on the committee. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 21 1 MR. KURTZ: You represent the Judges? 2 MR. WORD: I represent the Judges. 3 MR. DUBOSE: Is it unusual for a county the 4 size of Carroll, in your experience, to have a 5 full-time administrator? 6 MR. WORD: Yeah. We weren't able to find 7 another county that has a full-time administrator 8 of our size. There are some larger counties that 9 do, but Carroll has less than 100,000 population 10 and Carrollton city is probably 25,000 people. 11 Now, I do have some more remarks. I don't 12 want y'all to cut me off here, but I've got some 13 other stuff that I want to talk about. 14 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Go ahead, Phyllis. 15 MR. KURTZ: You want to reserve some time? 16 MR. WORD: I want to reserve some time for 17 rebuttal. 18 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: The red light is not on 19 yet, but Ms. Holmen, I think, was trying to ask a 20 question. 21 MS. HOLMEN: I just wanted to ask how you 22 handled Defendants who don't speak English; and 23 then, secondly, Defendants who might have mental 24 health problems. 25 MS. EIDSON: The ones that don't speak KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 22 1 English, we've gotten several interpreters in 2 Carroll County that are helping us on a minimal 3 fee basis. That's one thing that Jerry and I have 4 been trying to talk to the Commissioners about, 5 about getting somebody on staff. Not just for the 6 public defender's office, but for the first 7 appearance hearings, full-time, on staff that 8 speaks Spanish. 9 And the mental health as Jerry -- I've been 10 around for 11 -- I've done nothing for 14 years 11 but do -- work with criminal lawyers. I make sure 12 that, you know, that somebody that can handle the 13 mental health issues is the attorney that gets 14 that case. I mean, I pick and choose who gets 15 cases very carefully. 16 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Bill, yes. 17 MR. IDE: Do you keep statistics, say, on 18 what happened and how do you define success? In 19 other words, the program is a success. Is it the 20 process? Is it the results of the trials, or how 21 do you look at it? 22 MR. WORD: Is that to me or Kim? 23 MR. IDE: Both of you. 24 MR. WORD: Both of us. Kim and I probably 25 define success differently, but I kind of define KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 23 1 success as getting people in and out of the jail 2 quickly at first appearance hearings or bond 3 hearings and get them out of the confines of the 4 jail as quickly as possible and getting them to 5 their lawyer as quickly as possible. 6 And I don't think that you can define 7 success as wins or losses. We've got competent 8 attorneys that, you know, handle the cases. We 9 also have a full-time investigator for our public 10 defender office, which is something that we have 11 had for about two years now, and that, you know, I 12 think, has helped us define success in the ability 13 to investigate cases on an expeditious basis, 14 especially if you've got somebody in jail and 15 you've got to have an investigation. 16 And so I define it as managing caseloads, 17 getting people in and out of jail, and seeing to 18 it that they have an adequate opportunity to 19 present their defense. 20 MS. EIDSON: And I'd like to say we hardly 21 ever, or I hardly ever get a complaint from 22 anybody. Used to we got grievance letters quite 23 often, and we hardly ever get a grievance letter 24 anymore. 25 MR. KURTZ: And when did that change? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 24 1 MS. EIDSON: When we went to the five 2 attorneys. When there was just one public 3 defender's office, or a contract attorney. When 4 we went to the five that changed. 5 MR. KURTZ: So the fact that you have more 6 people and the caseload isn't as burdensome for 7 any of the individuals, that's provided better 8 service? 9 MS. EIDSON: Yes, sir. Because we only have 10 two courtrooms in Carroll County and so all five 11 of my public defenders cannot be in trial at the 12 same time, and so I've always got an extra 13 attorney that I can go and grab and say help me 14 with this issue, you know, or what about this? 15 Can you come to the jail? Or can you get out to 16 the jail? Or, you know, I've always got somebody 17 that I can call and say help me now. 18 MR. KURTZ: And you said you get minimal 19 funding for interpreters. How does that come 20 about? I mean, do you have authority to hire, to 21 just call up an interpreter and say I need you and 22 you can incur the debt? 23 MS. EIDSON: Between Jerry and Judge Duffy, 24 I have never had a bill ever be denied. 25 MR. KURTZ: And does it go directly to the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 25 1 Commission? 2 MS. EIDSON: Well, Jerry has to approve it 3 and then the Commissioners. 4 MR. WORD: It comes to me as chairman of the 5 Tripartite Committee. I approve the bill if it's 6 not an extraordinary expense. If it's an 7 extraordinary expense the Superior Court Judge 8 approves it and then we submit it to the County 9 Commission for payment. 10 MR. KURTZ: And what kind of budget line 11 does that come from? 12 MS. EIDSON: Miscellaneous. 13 MR. KURTZ: The old miscellaneous budget. 14 MR. WORD: The old miscellaneous budget, 15 yes. 16 MR. KURTZ: I've got some bills that I would 17 like to submit. 18 MR. WORD: We're working on getting some 19 translators in as a budget line. That's not going 20 to happen this year, but that's one of our 21 projects with our Commission, is to try to get 22 that. And, again, we're approaching it from a 23 cost savings standpoint. They have issues in 24 other departments of the county, and so we're 25 looking at somebody that maybe the county can put KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 26 1 on full-time that we can employ on a regular 2 basis. 3 MR. KURTZ: Do you have any sense of how 4 much in a year that you spend on that? 5 MR. WORD: Kim could probably tell you 6 better than I can. 7 MS. EIDSON: On interpretation? 8 MR. WORD: It's exploding, I can tell you 9 that. Beyond that -- 10 MS. EIDSON: I would say at least $5,000 a 11 year. 12 MR. KURTZ: How much do they get paid an 13 hour? 14 MS. EIDSON: We have some that do $25 an 15 hour. Some as much as $75, but we try to use the 16 cheaper one if we can. 17 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: I wanted to go back to 18 your point about the complaints. Can you sort of 19 characterize your getting more complaints? What 20 types of things were they complaining about? 21 MS. EIDSON: Not being seen often enough. 22 Not being seen fast enough. That's probably the 23 majority of them. Now, having five attorneys they 24 get out there, you know, quickly, and we don't 25 have many complaints. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 27 1 If I do get a complaint I immediately call 2 the attorney and say tell me, you know, how many 3 times have you seen Joe Blow? You know, is there 4 a reason why he doesn't have a bond? You know, 5 have you done a bond motion? I really ask them. 6 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: So complaints are 7 responded to pretty quickly? 8 MS. EIDSON: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE ADAMS: So the hourly rates differ 10 between the lawyers that are paneled -- well, not 11 not paneled? 12 MS. EIDSON: Not lawyers, the interpreters. 13 JUDGE ADAMS: Oh, the interpreters. 14 MS. EIDSON: Our lawyers are paid on a 15 contract basis. 16 MR. KURTZ: So the pie, is that just 17 dividing up of the same pie in five slices or does 18 the pie get bigger? 19 MR. WORD: I think the pie got bigger, and 20 so the cost of five lawyers is more than the cost 21 of one. 22 MR. KURTZ: Do you have any sense of what 23 those numbers are? 24 MR. WORD: Well, I can tell you that each 25 contract defender gets paid approximately $62,500 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 28 1 a year. 2 MR. KURTZ: And that's for one-fifth of what 3 happens? 4 MR. WORD: For one-fifth of what happens, 5 basically. 6 MR. KURTZ: That's $300,000 a year. 7 MR. WORD: Right. Roughly. 8 MR. KURTZ: And were you the sole contract 9 attorney? 10 MR. WORD: My law firm at one time was, and 11 then it shifted to another law firm. 12 MR. KURTZ: And what was that contract, do 13 you have any idea? 14 MR. WORD: For two of us -- there were 15 actually two of us in the firm, but we had 16 conflict problems because it was only one office, 17 but probably $110,000 up to $125,000. It kind of 18 increased over time. 19 MR. KURTZ: And it went someplace else after 20 this? 21 MR. WORD: Yeah. It went somewhere else and 22 it went up to maybe $200,000, and then when it 23 went to five attorneys it went up to about 24 $300,000, roughly. 25 MR. BRIGHT: Can I ask this, Charles? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 29 1 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Sure. 2 MR. BRIGHT: What do you do with people who 3 make over $760 but still can't afford a lawyer? 4 Do you have any of those people who are just over 5 the guideline but can't spend $5,000 on a lawyer? 6 And, secondly, do you treat people who bond 7 out? Does that change their status at all? And 8 if so, how? 9 MS. EIDSON: If they bond out, it does. The 10 sheet that's attached to their application tells 11 them they're supposed to contact me immediately. 12 If they do contact me we automatically get them 13 back in and see if they've got a job and 14 re-qualify them. And then we mainly determine if 15 they're in those guidelines they stay with the 16 attorney that was appointed while they were 17 incarcerated. We try not to change that. 18 MR. WORD: Bonding out doesn't automatically 19 disqualify you, you just have to come back and 20 show your financial information. 21 MR. BRIGHT: So that you're still in it? 22 MR. WORD: Right. 23 MR. BRIGHT:: What about those people that 24 are just over? 25 MS. EIDSON: Well, if they're real close I KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 30 1 qualify them. If they're way over, we have taken 2 it up with the Judge before and the Judge has said 3 go ahead and appoint an attorney. And I don't 4 recall any circumstance that somebody wanted an 5 attorney that had to go to trial by themselves. 6 MR. WORD: Steve, if they're close Kim just 7 usually qualifies them. If they're not close the 8 Judge will usually send them out to try to hire an 9 attorney, give them 15 days to hire an attorney. 10 I can't remember anybody who has been made 11 to go to trial without an attorney. We just tell 12 them to go ahead and represent them anyway. Of 13 course, if they're in jail we assume they're 14 qualified anyway. That's not a problem. 15 MR. DUBOSE: Is there an investigator in the 16 county? 17 MS. EIDSON: Yes. She's been there for two 18 years. 19 MR. KURTZ: Former policeman? 20 MS. EIDSON: Yes, policewoman. 21 MR. KURTZ: Former policewoman? 22 MS. EIDSON: Yes. 23 MR. WORD: Yes. We've had to re-train her. 24 JUDGE BIRCH: How much is your investigator 25 paid? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 31 1 MR. WORD: $30,000 a year, which is 2 comparable to what a police investigator is paid, 3 and she also is allowed to have -- she's got a 4 little private security business on the side that 5 she's allowed to do, too. But as far as just 6 investigations, that's comparable salary to what a 7 police investigator will do. 8 MR. DUBOSE: Do you find that one 9 investigator adequately serves the contract 10 defenders? 11 MR. WORD: No. 12 MS. EIDSON: No. We're asking that we get a 13 second one. 14 MR. WORD: This week was a perfect example. 15 We had two murder cases going in two courtrooms 16 and so -- and we've got trials next week. She was 17 tied up between two courtrooms and can't help us 18 with witnesses for next week and so we really 19 could use another investigator. 20 I really do think that that's one thing that 21 I want to speak about as far as caseloads not only 22 for lawyers, but I think investigators. 23 You know, the police -- the DA has an 24 investigator for each case and maybe a police 25 officer has got two or three cases but five public KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 32 1 defenders have one investigator and we've got 600 2 cases a year, and so caseloads for lawyers are 3 critical, but I think it's also critical for 4 investigators to have some kind of caseload 5 because it's impossible for us to get our jobs 6 done if the investigators can't get their jobs 7 done. 8 MR. KURTZ: And that's a line item for the 9 County Commission? 10 MR. WORD: Yes, it is. 11 MR. KURTZ: And was that a tough sell? 12 MR. WORD: Well, actually we had one 13 Commissioner who got behind us on that because he 14 realized the problem we had and it was a tough 15 sell for him, I think, and it took him probably 16 two years to get it in. 17 MS. EIDSON: Without paying $35 an hour. 18 MR. KURTZ: He was convinced right away, but 19 it took him a while to get his buddy? 20 MR. WORD: Right. And we had to go to the 21 Judge and get approval for investigative expenses, 22 and the Judge was helping us out, and so it 23 finally became a cost thing, which is the way you 24 often have to do these things. 25 MR. KURTZ: To get the Judge to authorize KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 33 1 enough and then you can get a line item? 2 MR. WORD: Right. Exactly. And so we were 3 able to get a line item that way. And so that's 4 what we've done. 5 A couple of things that I want to talk 6 about. I know y'all want to end quickly so that 7 you can go into executive session or whatever Blue 8 Ribbon Commissions do. 9 I wanted to talk about the reasons that I 10 think a contract defender system should be an 11 allowed alternative and in the State Bar proposal 12 that was passed a couple of weeks ago they said on 13 a circuit-wide basis. I think it really should go 14 on a county-by-county basis because Carroll 15 County, for example, has five counties in the 16 circuit. 17 Heard County is lucky if they can keep a 18 public defender. Meriwether is a small county, 19 but Coweta, Carroll and Troup are perfectly 20 capable of funding their own systems and they all 21 three have different systems. 22 And so if you restrict circuits to elect a 23 contract defender system as opposed to a 24 county-by-county I think it would pose a real 25 problem for counties like Carroll that are in KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 34 1 multi-county circuits. 2 But one reason that I think the contract 3 defender system should be allowed is counties like 4 Cobb. I know some of the finest lawyers in Cobb 5 County, criminal defense lawyers, are on the 6 contract defender list. 7 We feel like Carroll County does the same 8 thing. I think Gwinnett County, the other 9 counties that have good contract defender systems, 10 you couldn't get that quality of lawyer if you're 11 paid a public defender salary. You couldn't get 12 the Jimmy Berrys if he's restricted to a public 13 defender salary to continue on as a public 14 defender. 15 And so when you've got places that have 16 contract defender systems that have good lawyers 17 basically -- I enjoy criminal defense work and 18 this is a way to supplement my income. It's 19 certainly not -- it's probably less than half of 20 my income, but it's certainly something that I 21 enjoy the work, but if I were asked to become a 22 full-time public defender I would have to quit. 23 MR. KURTZ: I thought the Cobb system and 24 the Gwinnett system were panel systems and not 25 contract systems. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 35 1 MR. WORD: I may be confused by that. 2 MR. KURTZ: Okay. But those are two very 3 different things. I mean, a contract system is 4 one where you contract with the county for $62,500 5 to do whatever. 6 MR. WORD: But I think the concept is kind 7 of the same if a panel lawyer has to quit and 8 become a full-time public defender. 9 MR. KURTZ: Well, I think there is a big 10 difference between a full-time public defender and 11 the other two systems, but there is also a big 12 difference between the other two systems. 13 MR. WORD: I agree with that, but as far as 14 me as a contract defender, I would have to quit 15 the job, basically, just for economic reasons and 16 would not continue on. 17 The other thing is I see that with public 18 defender systems there is a real risk of -- I see 19 three kinds of lawyers as public defenders: Those 20 who are very dedicated and good lawyers that are 21 interested in seeing that indigents get good 22 representation; there is lawyers who are 23 interested in that as a springboard that are very 24 good lawyers but are planning on moving on quickly 25 into another job; and then there are those KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 36 1 lawyers, and you find them in the DA's office, 2 too, that are not capable of working anywhere 3 else. 4 And my fear is if you don't allow contract 5 defender systems there is a lot of counties that 6 are going to end up with lawyers who can't do 7 anything else, where you've got good lawyers in 8 the county that are capable of handling the 9 contract defender system. 10 However, I feel like, by default, for 11 uniformity, we should go to a public defender 12 system and require the counties to meet certain 13 criteria if they're going to make an exception. 14 Rather than the cast we have now it should 15 be -- my feeling is it should be a public defender 16 system unless your county comes in and shows that 17 they have a system that is capable of meeting or 18 exceeding the guidelines. 19 And I think some of the guidelines that I'm 20 convinced are necessary as far as a contract 21 defender system is caseloads for lawyers, but also 22 caseloads for investigators because if we don't 23 have adequate investigators that can see to it 24 that our cases are properly investigated I'd 25 rather have too many extra investigators than KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 37 1 extra lawyers, frankly. 2 Given the choice in Carroll County, we can 3 certainly use one more, two more investigators, 4 not two more lawyers. 5 Making sure that the lawyers that are in the 6 system have an adequate experience and training 7 level. And the one critical thing I think in any 8 system is the indigent defense administrator like 9 Kim, who is not a court administrator. Her sole 10 job is indigent Defendants and seeing that they 11 move through the system. And I think that that is 12 critical that somebody is there seeing to it that 13 the people are getting lawyers. 14 It's a centralized location where if a 15 lawyer isn't doing their job there is a person 16 that the Judge can go to, the Defendant can go to 17 to complain. 18 It makes me accountable because when she 19 assigns me the case she's got a record of when I 20 got John Doe's case. I have had it since, you 21 know, April 1. Why haven't you been out there to 22 see him? 23 And so I think the indigent defense 24 administrator as an independent person is very 25 critical to see to it that lawyers are doing their KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 38 1 jobs and that indigents are moved through the 2 system very quickly. 3 And so that's kind of what I wanted to say 4 the last time and didn't get to say. I appreciate 5 y'all letting me come back. If y'all got anymore 6 questions I'll be happy to answer them. 7 MS. DEVINE: Jerry, did you cover the 8 comparison of salaries between the five attorneys 9 and the public defender's office and the 10 prosecutors? Can you compare, also, the level of 11 experience and how comfortable -- 12 MR. WORD: Well, the prosecutors in our 13 circuit are paid so poorly that the defenders are 14 probably being paid better than the prosecutors 15 because our caseloads are lighter and our salaries 16 are better. 17 The level of experience is probably far 18 greater in the contract defenders because with 19 poor salaries in the DA's office they lose DAs 20 left and right, and where we are that's not a 21 problem. 22 MR. KURTZ: Are any of the five contract 23 attorneys former DAs? 24 MR. WORD: Yes. As a matter of fact, they 25 are. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 39 1 MS. DEVINE: That tells the story. 2 MR. WORD: Yeah. As a matter of fact, they 3 are. 4 JUDGE BIRCH: If the State takes over 5 funding for the indigent system, do you think then 6 it makes sense to go on a circuit-wide basis with 7 what you suggested perhaps a default system; that 8 it will be this unless the county can show that 9 they are operating in a way that is superior? 10 MR. WORD: Well, I think the State should 11 still fund, but if the county can come up with a 12 system within their county that maybe supplement 13 in some way, I think it should still get county -- 14 default to the public defender, but allow the 15 public defender to opt out even if the State's 16 funding it and require the State to commit the 17 same funds to that county system as they would to 18 any other system. 19 Because it's not fair for Cobb County to 20 pay -- I know Cobb County has a huge public 21 defender budget, and if the State is paying for 22 everybody else's they should get their fair share 23 of that money and then if Cobb County wants to 24 supplement, or Carroll County wants to supplement, 25 allow them to do it. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 40 1 MS. DEVINE: And how do you assure the 2 quality across the State? 3 MR. WORD: I think the only way you can, in 4 my mind, is with some kind of guidelines on early 5 intervention, on caseloads, on, you know, 6 investigators' caseloads. I think that's the only 7 way that you can do it. And beyond that, I don't 8 know how you monitor. 9 JUDGE BIRCH: Have you given any thought if 10 the State were to do it, and we haven't really 11 talked about this too much, but something I think 12 is going to have to be looked at, is the funding 13 going to be on a per capita basis? Is it going to 14 have an indigent factor in there as a poor county? 15 Or, I mean, people are relatively poor, 16 wealthy, middle class or whatever. There are so 17 many factors. Have you all even thought about 18 that? Is there any kind of guidelines at all that 19 are in use that you know of? 20 MR. WORD: You probably asked the wrong 21 person that question. I know GIDC has that 22 formula that they use that it's so complex that -- 23 JUDGE BIRCH: Some computer. 24 MR. WORD: Yeah. I don't think anybody 25 knows what it is, but it's kind of like KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 41 1 calculating fines in criminal cases. You know, it 2 takes you longer to calculate the fine than serve 3 the sentence a lot of times. 4 MR. KURTZ: I think we've agreed not to 5 mention the word fines in here. 6 MR. WORD: Okay. I understand that. But, 7 yeah, I feel like that it's going to be difficult 8 to fund an adequate program in some of the poorer 9 counties unless you make some kind of allowance 10 for the fact that the county is not able to 11 supplement. 12 And so I think it's important to ensure 13 uniformity that every county gets the opportunity 14 based on caseloads and things like that to have 15 their same, or at least equivalent funding. 16 And so I think what you got to do is look at 17 caseloads. And then the only way that I know to 18 factor in the wealth of the county is if the 19 county is willing to contribute and go to a 20 different system like Cobb County, for example. 21 Then maybe that's the way to factor it in, is to 22 encourage them if they've got a better system, or 23 an equivalent system to be able to do that. 24 JUDGE BIRCH: You know, there was 25 intermediate discussion, I guess, by Tom Murphy, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 42 1 Speaker of the House, about the fines that are 2 collected and things like that. He thought that 3 would be more than adequate. I'm sure it goes to 4 the general budget in most counties. 5 Do you have any idea in Carroll County what 6 that total, how that would compare to running your 7 indigent system? Have y'all ever had a chance to 8 look at that? 9 MR. WORD: I think we have looked at that. 10 And I wish I had those numbers, but I know it 11 would fully fund our system at this point. 12 Carroll County takes in a tremendous volume 13 of fines by way of I-20 coming through Carroll 14 County and we're wealthy enough to have three 15 Wal-Marts in our county. Maybe that's the formula 16 you should use. 17 MR. KURTZ: The Wal-Mart funding formula. 18 MS. DEVINE: Jerry, can you talk a little 19 about the special drug courts, or family courts, 20 or things that might impact the system as well? 21 MR. WORD: Yeah. Our county has funded a 22 drug court. In fact, my law partner is the drug 23 court Judge, and this is an alternative type 24 sentencing where the Judge will defer sentencing 25 until the person completes the drug court program. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 43 1 And it's used for not just for first 2 offenders, but multiple offenders who do not have 3 violent crimes; that the source of their criminal 4 activity is a drug addiction. 5 It's still a small program. We don't have a 6 large amount of funding. They just got their 7 first grant from the Supreme Court, the Burn 8 Grant. I believe they got the first Burn Grant 9 recently, but they have an average of about 20 10 people in the program, which is not a huge volume. 11 About 600 cases a year, but their recidivous rate 12 is right now running about, like everybody else's, 13 about 50 percent of the people who complete the 14 program are staying out of trouble. 15 So I don't know right now that it's making a 16 large impact, but I think it has the potential of 17 having a big impact on caseloads and crime rates 18 in general. 19 MR. DUBOSE: What do you have to do with 20 conflict cases? 21 MR. WORD: For conflict cases we have a 22 panel of attorneys that handle the case at the 23 approved hourly rate, whatever it happens to be at 24 the time. It's $65 now, but -- 25 MR. DUBOSE: Does Kim appoint them? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 44 1 MR. WORD: Kim appoints them and, again, she 2 takes into account the nature of the case and the 3 experience of the conflict attorney. 4 MS. EIDSON: We don't have that many 5 conflicts. 6 MR. WORD: With five attorneys that's one 7 reason how we were able to sell five attorneys is 8 we were able to tremendously cut down on our 9 conflicts because we've got -- my partner and I, 10 obviously, are in the same office, but you've got 11 four different offices to choose from, and so you 12 minimize your conflicts when you've got that many 13 offices to assign cases to. 14 MS. BEEMAN: Can you talk about your State 15 Courts and your Criminal Courts? 16 MR. WORD: The State Court system is also a 17 contract attorney and it is one of the felony 18 contracts. The felony contract is divided into 19 one-fourth, one-fourth, one-fourth, and then one 20 of them is two one-eighths. That's how the five 21 attorneys are arrived at. 22 One of those attorneys is also the State 23 Court contract defender and right now that office 24 has two attorneys that alternate in one firm, but 25 there is not a lot of conflicts in State Court and KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 45 1 so one firm is pretty well handling all of the 2 State Court cases. They're paid $25,000 a year, I 3 believe, for State Court cases. I don't know the 4 caseloads. 5 MS. EIDSON: About 130. 6 MR. WORD: Okay. About 130 cases in the 7 State Court that are indigent. Juvenile Court, 8 one of the reasons that I met with one of my 9 Commissioners this week was they right now are 10 strictly going on a panel system, appointment 11 system, and Kim can probably give you the 12 caseloads and all of that, but they're paying out, 13 I know, over $100,000 to pay for juvenile lawyers 14 right now. 15 That's another thing that's exploding, and 16 so I expect that the county is going to look to go 17 into a contract defender system for the Juvenile 18 Courts in the near future just in an effort to, 19 again, centralize what lawyers are handling the 20 cases because there are four or five different 21 lawyers that are scattered out between Lithia 22 Springs and Carrollton and they're doing juvenile 23 cases and try to centralize it. 24 And, also, we're selling it to them as a 25 cost-cutting measure, too, because they can KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 46 1 probably maintain reasonable caseloads and save on 2 travel time and things like that with some local 3 attorneys that might do that. 4 MR. DUBOSE: Are juvenile defenders 5 appointed directly by the Judge? 6 MR. WORD: Yeah. Juvenile defenders are 7 appointed directly by the Judge, and they are 8 every time I turn around and so I don't know. 9 They get appointed fairly quickly in the juvenile 10 system. 11 MR. BRIGHT: If you had a circuit-wide 12 approach, that would help counties like Heard 13 County and the little counties a great deal in 14 terms of bringing them up to a uniform standard of 15 practice? 16 MR. WORD: Absolutely. And I think that's 17 one reason that I said that I thought you should 18 default to a public defender on a circuit-wide 19 basis because there are a lot of people in 20 counties like Heard that they have struggled to 21 maintain the county public defender system. 22 JUDGE ADAMS: But you would also do that as 23 a penalty to the more wealthy counties in the 24 circuit. It would reduce their effective 25 representation to increase Heard County's KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 47 1 representation. 2 MR. BRIGHT: To make sure that the poor 3 person accused of a crime in Heard County, just by 4 virtue of the county line, didn't get worse 5 representation. I think the Constitution applies 6 in Heard County just like it does in Carroll 7 County. 8 MR. BRIGHT: Like in the State of Georgia, 9 that's where the State funding becomes so 10 important. 11 MR. WORD: Right. With the State funding 12 that would reduce it. 13 MR. BRIGHT: But right now there is a huge 14 difference even in your circuit, and even on 15 eligibility like what you were saying about all of 16 the people that are over the guidelines. Those 17 people in Coweta County don't get lawyers. In 18 Carroll County they do. That's right there in the 19 same circuit. 20 In one place you're getting very good 21 lawyers and another place people are told that 22 they can't have lawyers because they're $1.00 over 23 the $760. 24 MR. WORD: Or they made bond. 25 MR. BRIGHT: Or they made bond. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 48 1 JUDGE ADAMS: It would be some powerful 2 State Senators and Representatives that would 3 reconfigure the circuit alignment in Georgia if 4 that was undertaken, I believe. 5 But, I mean, if we limit it strictly to 6 circuits, because there are some circuits like 7 Cobb that are single county circuits that would 8 get -- end up having no adverse effect on them, 9 whereas wealthy counties within a multi-county 10 circuit would be penalized operating under that 11 system. 12 MR. BRIGHT: But are they penalized now in 13 the DA'S office? I mean, you have one DA's office 14 for the whole circuit, right? 15 MR. WORD: Right. 16 MR. BRIGHT: And it goes through the whole 17 circuit. Are the wealthy counties penalized? 18 MR. WORD: But Heard County, they just now 19 got their own District Attorney, too. I mean, 20 it's a problem on both sides. 21 MR. DUBOSE: I'm not sure that I understand 22 that premise that wealthier counties would be 23 penalized. 24 JUDGE ADAMS: Well, Cobb County is a single 25 circuit. It would not be sharing the wealth in KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 49 1 any -- like a circuit like Carroll County'S 2 circuit. What is the circuit? 3 MR. WORD: The Coweta Circuit. 4 JUDGE ADAMS: The Coweta Circuit. 5 MR. WORD: But if you funded on a 6 county-by-county basis, taking into account what 7 each county needed based on caseloads and things 8 like that, I don't see why a large county would be 9 penalized. You've just got to look at it 10 county-by-county and see how much funding they 11 need. 12 JUDGE BIRCH: And this has been a historic 13 problem in Georgia. Like Gainesville used to have 14 a public hospital there. Well, they would be 15 flooded with all of the indigent care from all 16 around the county, and so it's the same sort of 17 problem. 18 The only way that they equitably do it is to 19 fund it. They may have a system set up to operate 20 on a circuit basis, but they would have to fund 21 it. That's why I was asking about the funding. 22 They would have to do funding on some sort of 23 one-to-one basis. 24 In other words, you have to demonstrate the 25 need and the caseloads and all of that sort of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 50 1 thing. 2 The problem that you get, though, if you've 3 got a -- at least when I was a county attorney in 4 Hall County I saw this in the hospital. If you've 5 got a poor county, medical care tends to be, 6 because people don't have the resources to go to a 7 doctor much, if you're in a poorer county you get 8 more property crimes just as people steal, and so 9 there is that factor in there that you kind of 10 have to take into consideration. 11 MR. KURTZ: So what you're talking about is, 12 hypothetically, setting a circuit-wide budget 13 based upon four or five or six county budgets. 14 JUDGE BIRCH: Well, and criteria. 15 MR. KURTZ: Whatever criteria you use you 16 build it by -- 17 MR. BIRCH: So that you don't end up 18 penalizing a county that's kind of got their act 19 together, but it ought to be on a need basis. The 20 need is how many cases you have, and how many 21 indigents you have, and that sort of thing. 22 It could well be that a smaller county, if 23 you just looked at it on a head count basis, 24 population basis, might on a head per capita basis 25 get more than a wealthier county, but the need may KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 51 1 be demonstrably greater. 2 MS. DEVINE: Jerry, you mentioned earlier 3 that some of the contract defenders were 4 previously DAs. 5 MR. WORD: Right. 6 MS. DEVINE: And you also said that you are 7 dedicated to criminal defense and enjoy that kind 8 of work. 9 Would you speak about your own philosophy 10 about criminal defense and what it means -- how do 11 you defend your client? Where does that come 12 from? What is it about? 13 MR. WORD: Well, mine comes from upbringing 14 and comes from within. I was raised to pull for 15 Georgia Tech because they're always the underdog 16 and -- 17 MR. KURTZ: And properly so. 18 MR. WORD: And properly so, but I was 19 talking to somebody the other day I always look to 20 see who is the underdog in the Super Bowl and pull 21 for that team. It just came from within. It was 22 the way that I was raised. 23 My father was a lawyer and we've represented 24 poor people in the county for as long as I can 25 remember, and so -- KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 52 1 MS. DEVINE: You don't assume the guilt 2 before the plea? 3 MR. WORD: No. No. I was here that day. 4 No. I take very seriously the presumption of 5 innocence and I presume that my client is telling 6 me the truth, and if I have facts that dispute 7 that, and we're lucky we're in a circuit that has 8 an open file policy. I think it's my client's job 9 to tell me that that's not the -- that it is the 10 truth as opposed to me assuming that he's lying to 11 me. 12 I go in presuming that he's innocent and do 13 the best that I can with what I've got to work 14 with to prove that innocence, whatever it takes, 15 and recognize that he doesn't have the burden of 16 proof but in reality he does. 17 And so I think my job, in fact I had a 18 falling-out with a former partner when we first 19 got the public defender contract, and I won't name 20 names, but he would write on the files, he would 21 get all of the files and first write, "Good case. 22 Needs to plead guilty." 23 And I remember going out and seeing to one 24 of my clients and he's reading my file upside down 25 and he says, "What is this good case, needs to KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 53 1 plead guilty?" And I said, "I didn't write that." 2 And I was sort of embarrassed because I 3 think if you start with that mentality with your 4 client that I don't believe you and you need to 5 plead guilty, then I think you're losing from the 6 very beginning. 7 I think you'd better start with tell me what 8 happened. Tell me why you're here. And let's see 9 what we can do about it. And then sit down with 10 the file and go through the facts, and if a 11 reality check of, you know, by the way is this 12 your confession right here? If that's what it 13 takes to bring him around, that's fine, but I'm 14 not going to ever say, you know, you're guilty and 15 you need to plead guilty from the get-go. 16 JUDGE BIRCH: When you talk to people, 17 County Commissioners and other people, they'll 18 say, well, you know, statistically they plead out 19 85-90 percent of these cases. These people are 20 all -- that means these people are all 21 acknowledging their guilt. What do they need all 22 of these lawyers for? 23 And the only response, I mean one of the 24 responses besides the Constitution, of course, is 25 well look, if you've got an experienced defense KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 54 1 counsel in the plea process, fairness comes out 2 because that experienced defender can spot the two 3 or three overcharges or whatever sometimes are 4 thrown in and get it down. But get it down and 5 say I did it, but at least I'm being treated 6 fairly. 7 I remember when I was in the public defender 8 work you get in there and they'll say oh, yeah, I 9 did that, but I didn't do these other four things 10 and he's feeling like he's being treated 11 wrongfully. How true is that? 12 MR. WORD: I think that it's extremely true. 13 It's very rare that you actualy plead somebody 14 guilty to what the indictment says because I don't 15 know how other circuits are, but our circuit 16 overcharges tremendously. Everything that they 17 can think of they throw in and it's real common 18 for clients to say I did this and this, but I 19 didn't do that, and I'll go back and say well he'd 20 plead guilty to this and this, but he ain't 21 pleading guilty to that, and they'll say fine, 22 let's throw that it out. 23 And the client is happy because they are 24 pleading guilty to what they're really guilty of, 25 and in the meantime by throwing out that charge KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 55 1 you probably got the sentence a little more in 2 line to what it should be, and maybe 90 percent of 3 them do plead guilty, but not to what they're 4 accused of necessarily. 5 MR. BRIGHT: Well, advocacy in sentencing is 6 very important, too. You have a relationship to 7 your client and you can point to particular issues 8 that your client has, whether it's mental health, 9 or addiction, or alcoholism, or whatever that may 10 influence the sentence they have and help the 11 system sort out who goes to prison and who 12 doesn't. 13 MR. WORD: I agree. If you don't know who 14 your client is, it's real hard to stand up and 15 advocate for him. And so you've got to have met 16 him and talked him and find out a little bit about 17 him even if all you can do is stand up and say 18 well he's had a job up until this and he got drunk 19 that night and, you know, his wife got in a fight. 20 But otherwise, you know, no prior history of 21 family violence, always maintain -- that's going 22 to make a big impact on the Judge if you know 23 that, and if you don't know it then the 24 prosecutor's recommendation -- and we do a lot of 25 blind pleas in our circuit because the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 56 1 prosecutor's recommendation is usually up here and 2 we're down here and the Judge usually falls 3 somewhere in the middle, and so you've got to know 4 the sentencing issues in your particular case, 5 also. 6 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Well, it sounds like we're 7 talking about what makes for effective 8 representation, but my question is why do you feel 9 so strongly that there should be a default system 10 as opposed to just requiring particular counties 11 or circuits to live up and perform according to 12 certain standards? 13 Is it just because you think that the 14 contract system is the best and that should be the 15 default or -- 16 MR. WORD: No. I actually think the public 17 defender should be the default system from the 18 uniformity standpoint. Uniformity of funding, 19 uniformity of approach. 20 And the reason I feel that way is I think 21 there is a great temptation if you go back to what 22 we had for so many years, to slip back into that 23 mentality of well this is good enough for now, 24 whereas if you got a system with some set 25 guidelines and you've got to then meet some KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 57 1 criteria to get out of that default. 2 You know, I just feel like it's important to 3 set certain criteria and then if you're going to 4 go to an alternate system then the burden is on 5 that county to say our system is as good or 6 better, and that's the reason that I'm saying 7 default to the public defender system and require 8 the counties to, you know, apply to get out of the 9 public defender system. 10 MR. KURTZ: I want to get back to that, 11 pursue that for a bit. In your county, in Coweta 12 circuit, there are three contract systems. There 13 are two counties where they would have a rough 14 time coming up with contracts. I assume they do 15 the appointed and the panel. 16 MR. WORD: They do whatever they can do that 17 particular year, basically. 18 MR. KURTZ: And so if the default system is 19 going to be a public defender under your theory 20 within the circuit, within your circuit, probably 21 the three big counties would opt for a contract 22 system and would be able to prove that they were 23 okay with that. I mean, that they could handle 24 that, right? 25 But then Heard County and Troup County would KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 58 1 be with public defenders, and that makes sense, I 2 suppose, only under substantial if not total State 3 funding right? 4 MR. WORD: Right. 5 MR. KURTZ: I mean, part of what you're 6 talking about is substantial or total State 7 funding. 8 MR. WORD: I think everything that I'm 9 talking about is substantial or total State 10 funding. You know, the systems as they are now I 11 don't think that you can enforce what needs to be 12 done if the State didn't fund it. I absolutely 13 believe that is critical to the process is State 14 funding. 15 MR. KURTZ: And in Troup and Heard County 16 there would be, presumably, a public defender in 17 each or maybe a, I guess, possibly a joint public 18 defender? 19 MR. WORD: Right. And actually Troup 20 already has a public defender. It's Meriwether is 21 the smaller county, but Troup has a public 22 defender. I guess Coweta just went to a public 23 defender. And Carroll has a contract defender. 24 Heard County, I did it one year for them, 25 but they grabbed whatever lawyers they could grab KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 59 1 for whatever they can grab them and pay them $500 2 a month to come down once a month and handle their 3 cases for them. 4 And I don't know what Meriwether County 5 does, but I think it's a panel of programs there, 6 possibly, but it's -- my theory, you're going to 7 have to, I think, set up an office for either a 8 county or a multiple contract. 9 MR. KURTZ: You're going to have to 10 aggregate the county probably because you're going 11 to have several counties that really don't need 12 one. 13 MR. WORD: Right. Heard County does not 14 need a full-time public defender. 15 MR. KURTZ: Totally for it. 16 MR. WORD: Right. 17 MR. KURTZ: But you're saying that we should 18 recommend -- the State should aggregate per county 19 with some other nearby counties that are also 20 unable to support their own and make that a 21 multi-county public defender. 22 MR. WORD: Right. 23 MR. GRIFFIN: Let me add a question. On 24 probation violations, do those people have access 25 to an attorney on a revocation of probation? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 60 1 MR. WORD: If they're charged with a new 2 felony, or something other than a technical 3 violation, they do have access to attorneys. 4 If they just have a technical violation, 5 they are not generally given an attorney. Now, 6 sometimes the Judge will, you know, ask one of us 7 to go ahead and represent them anyway, but as a 8 practical matter that's very rare. 9 MR. KURTZ: When you say technical 10 violation, do you mean violation of the terms and 11 of probation; that the violation, itself, is not 12 an independent crime? 13 MR. WORD: Exactly. 14 MR. KURTZ: Associating with someone that 15 you weren't supposed to associate with. 16 MR. WORD: Right. Failure to report, 17 failure to pay your fines and things like that as 18 opposed to a new crime. 19 MR. GRIFFIN: As a person that represents 20 indigents, do you see any increase in revocations 21 now that we've gone to a private probation system? 22 We get all kinds of stories about, you know, the 23 private probation companies, you know, even have 24 the people meet them at the jail. Do you have any 25 feel at all for that situation? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 61 1 MR. WORD: Well, we only have a private 2 system in the State Court system and, you know, my 3 sense of it is as long as you're paying your money 4 why you're okay on probation, and if you're not 5 paying your money you're probably going to get 6 revoked. That's probably a little bit unfair 7 characterization, but that's the sense that I get. 8 MR. KURTZ: Can somebody -- I need some 9 background. I need some facts. The State now 10 authorizes -- has privatized the probation 11 supervision? 12 JUDGE ADAMS: For misdemeanors. 13 MR. GRIFFIN: Misdemeanors. 14 MR. KURTZ: Only for misdemeanors. 15 JUDGE ADAMS: The State Department of 16 Corrections still operates a probation division 17 for felony cases. 18 MR. KURTZ: But for misdemeanors, if I 19 get -- if I get put on probation for a misdemeanor 20 in any county? 21 JUDGE ADAMS: No. Some counties, like Cobb 22 County, like our State Court has its own sentence 23 enforcement unit. It is a probation department, 24 for all practical purposes. They're certified 25 probation officers in the State and mandate KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 62 1 training and some other counties also do that. 2 MR. KURTZ: But outside of that -- 3 JUDGE ADAMS: Because we speculated that 4 perhaps a private probation company might only 5 enforce the collection of their probation fees and 6 not fully enforce the entire sentence, including 7 the fines, and so we want our sentences enforced 8 fully rather than just to collect. 9 MR. KURTZ: Is it one state-wide contract or 10 the counties -- 11 MR. WORD: County by county. 12 JUDGE ADAMS: No, it's county by county. 13 MR. WORD: Municipalities do it, too. 14 MR. KURTZ: There are lots of companies? 15 Are there lots of different companies that do 16 that? 17 MR. GRIFFIN: There are a lot of retirees 18 from the State. 19 JUDGE ADAMS: It's a lot of controversy 20 raging right now with two members of the Board of 21 Pardons and Parole. That's what that's all about. 22 MR. KURTZ: Oh, yeah? I got you. 23 JUDGE BIRCH: If you have a defender system 24 is it essential that it be independent so that the 25 Superior Court Judges or the State Court Judges KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 63 1 don't have a direct influence on how they conduct 2 themselves other than ethically? 3 MR. WORD: Well, yeah. I think it's got to 4 have a great amount of independence, you know, and 5 whether you elect them on a circuit-wide basis or 6 whether you appoint them for a term of years, it 7 still should have some kind of independence. Just 8 like the contract defender system should have some 9 kind of independence because if not you run the 10 risk of -- 11 JUDGE BIRCH: Have you ever had a situation 12 where a Judge tried to influence who got the 13 contract because they didn't like that lawyer? 14 MR. WORD: I have not seen that in our 15 county. The Judges -- well, I can say there 16 probably have been some lawyers that didn't get 17 approved for a contract because their relationship 18 with the Court was probably deservedly not good, 19 but I don't think that any lawyers have ever been 20 punished for doing a good job and representing 21 their clients properly. 22 MR. BRIGHT: By Judge Duffy. 23 MR. WORD: By the Judge in our county. 24 MR. BRIGHT: That should be true of all of 25 the Judges in the circuit. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 64 1 MR. WORD: That's our county. That's my 2 county experience. There are two Judges, Judge 3 Simpson and Judge Duffy, but Judge Duffy pretty 4 well maintains control and responsibility of the 5 indigent defender system in our county and he has 6 been instrumental in implementing a lot of the 7 changes that we have had in our county. 8 He has been right behind us pushing for us, 9 and he's the one who vetoed the lowest bidder when 10 that opportunity came up. He said that it isn't 11 going to the lowest bidder. 12 MR. KURTZ: That was one of the attorneys 13 that had a deservedly bad relationship with the 14 Judge? 15 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: I think we'll take just 16 maybe one more question because we really -- it's 17 10 until 11:00 and I think we're supposed to 18 adjourn from 11:00, but we want to hear from the 19 Spangenberg Group, also. One last question. 20 MR. RUNDLETT: I want to ask this quickly. 21 For people who are in jail and arrested, do you 22 all set preliminary hearings automatically every 23 two weeks for people? 24 MS. EIDSON: Yes. 25 MR. RUNDLETT: So they don't have to request KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 65 1 a preliminary hearing? 2 MS. EIDSON: Yes. 3 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: All right. Thank you very 4 much. 5 (Applause.) 6 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: We will hear from the 7 Spangenberg Group, and we have asked Maria Beeman 8 to give us an update and a progress report on the 9 work of the Spangenberg Group. 10 MS. BEEMAN: Well, I'm here to report that 11 as of today we will have concluded our site work 12 and so we've gone to all 19 counties and we 13 started it January 24 and we finished April 26, 14 and so it took us a little bit longer than we 15 anticipated because, for instance, in some 16 counties there was so much to do. 17 Hannah has been here this past week with 18 thoughts from the Spangenberg Group and a couple 19 of other people from our firm, and so this was our 20 last week. 21 In each of the counties that we visited to 22 we met with the same types of people. We met with 23 Judges, the Superior, State, Juvenile Court 24 Judges, Magistrate Court Judges, we met with the 25 District attorney and some of their staff, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 66 1 depending on the type of system we would meet with 2 the public defender, contract attorney, or penal 3 attorneys on a number of those in each system. 4 We met with the Tripartite Committee 5 members, administrators, County Commissioners, and 6 someone at the jail, the sheriff, deputy sheriff. 7 And so that's been the general approach. 8 Shooting to have a draft report due, after I've 9 contacted the court systems, we should have 10 something done by the first business week of May, 11 and that's basically the next meeting, and a final 12 report is supposed to be due by the end of May, 13 and I think it's fair to say that we're off a few 14 weeks for that because our site work was pushed 15 off a couple of weeks. 16 And so I think we're close to on target, but 17 we are in the process right now of compiling all 18 of our site notes, synthesizing our findings, our 19 observations, putting together themes. And so I 20 can say with some assurety I'm not going to have a 21 draft report for you guys next Friday, but it's 22 going to be fairly close to that. 23 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Do you think that you 24 would be prepared to talk about some of your 25 findings and recommendations at the May 13 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 67 1 meeting? 2 3 MS. BEEMAN: I think, probably. Yeah. 4 Yeah. 5 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Because I think May 13 is 6 the date for the next Commission meeting. We're 7 going to be hearing from the State Bar, I believe, 8 on that occasion, and it might be a good thing if 9 we could have some substantive, you know, report 10 from you, Maria, in terms of some of your findings 11 and so forth. 12 MS. BEEMAN: Sure. 13 MR. KURTZ: I'm curious. How would you 14 characterize, I mean, having -- I know the 15 Spangenberg Group has done studies like this in 16 many, many states. 17 How would you characterize the level of 18 cooperation of the players in Georgia as compared 19 to, well, however that you would like to 20 characterize it. 21 MS. BEEMAN: I would have to say to you that 22 the level of cooperation has been excellent. I 23 think that everyone at the Spangenberg Group has 24 been -- it's been remarkable that there has been 25 incredible courtesy extended to us in all of the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 68 1 counties that we've gone to. Everyone that we've 2 met with, whether they have a different 3 perspective on indigent defense than we do, 4 they've been honest, they've been candid, they've 5 been welcoming to us. 6 No one has said I don't want to talk to you. 7 I have it's been, actually, a very positive 8 experience. 9 JUDGE BIRCH: Well, we're southerners. 10 MS. BEEMAN: That's true. 11 MR. KURTZ: Y'all come. 12 MS. BEEMAN: We've enjoyed it. 13 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Any of the Commissioners 14 have any questions or comments from the 15 Spangenberg Group? 16 MR. DUBOSE: Do you have an outline of the 17 report? 18 MS. BEEMAN: Yeah. I have a copy that I was 19 going to pass out in the lunch session of the 20 report. I thought maybe the Commission members 21 would like to look at it first before we send it 22 out. I don't have anything on findings or 23 recommendations to distribute because I don't 24 think that we're at that point yet. I need to 25 tell you where we're headed. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 69 1 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: I would also like to say 2 for the record, just to be very clear because I 3 heard some indication that perhaps there was a 4 thought that the GIDC or some other group was 5 directing the Spangenberg Group, or controlling 6 it, or whatever. And aside from that, obviously, 7 not being the case, you know, the Commission, I 8 would like to say for the record the Commission 9 has not given any indication to the Spangenberg 10 Group of where they should come out or any 11 direction substantively what they should find. 12 Our instructions have been going to the conduct 13 the interviews and make recommendations to the 14 Commission based on that and your experience. 15 MS. BEEMAN: I think that's -- it's 16 important to point that out. And I also just want 17 to reinforce the fact that the Spangenberg Group 18 does this work all over the country. This is the 19 type of work that we do, and we have a reputation 20 for calling things as we see them, and so we're 21 going to report on what we find and what we see, 22 and it's not going to be predetermined by anyone 23 else. 24 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: All right. Yes, Flora. 25 MS. DEVINE: Maria, were there any areas KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 70 1 that you think you should have looked at that you 2 did not have an opportunity to look at? 3 MS. BEEMAN: I think that one of the areas 4 that I would have liked to have more time to delve 5 into is the whole misdemeanor arena of Municipal 6 on up to Magistrate and also State Court. 7 I think that we were able to get information 8 on each of the counties on misdemeanor activity, 9 but that seems to be one of the real problem 10 areas, and it's so diffuse. There are so many 11 different layers of court and different courts 12 from county to county it's really hard to get a 13 handle on. 14 I think that we will be able to cover it 15 adequately, but it will be nice to have even more 16 time to look at that. I also would like a little 17 more time to look into the various juvenile 18 practices around the state. It's another thing 19 that people tend to forget about when they're 20 thinking of who you need to talk to and who you 21 need to meet with. 22 And so, I mean, again, I think we made the 23 rounds. We covered all of the bases that we 24 wanted to cover, but I think that we could have 25 looked at it in more detail those areas. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 71 1 MS. DEVINE: You'll have recommendations 2 related to that as well? 3 MS. BEEMAN: Yes, we will. 4 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Any other questions? All 5 right. Well, thank you very much again, and thank 6 everybody for coming. 7 The Commission is going to go into executive 8 session, but I would like to repeat again that the 9 next meeting of the Commission will be Monday, May 10 13, at 9:30. The location will be the Supreme 11 Court. And, again, at that time we will hear from 12 the State Bar and the Spangenberg Group. 13 And so the Commission is adjourned. 14 15 (Hearing conclude at 11:00 a.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 72 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I hereby certify that the foregoing 4 transcript was taken down, as stated in the 5 caption; that the colloquies, questions and answers 6 thereto were reduced to typewriting under my direction; 7 and that the transcript is a true, correct and complete 8 record of the evidence given. 9 The above certification is expressly 10 withdrawn and denied upon the disassembly or 11 photocopying of the foregoing transcript, unless said 12 disassembly or photocopying is done under the auspices 13 of King Court Reporting Service, and the signature and 14 original seal is attached thereto. 15 I further certify that I am not a relative 16 or employee or attorney of any party, nor am I in any 17 way interested in the result of said case. 18 Pursuant to Article 8.B. of the Rules and 19 Regulations of the Board of Court Reporting of the 20 Judicial Council of Georgia and OCGA 15-14-37 (a) and 21 (b), written disclosure was presented. 22 This, the 28th day of June, 2002. 23 ________________________________ DIANE KING, CCR-B-1957 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE