1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 1 2 3 SUPREME COURT 4 COMMISSION ON INDIGENT DEFENSE 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 FEBRUARY 12, 2002 13 9:30 a.m. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Long, Aldridge & Norman 24 303 Peachtree Street, Suite 5300 25 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 REPORTED BY: DIANE KING, CSR, B-1957 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 20 125 COLONADE AVENUE, SUITE 1-B 21 ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30331 22 (404) 344-7855 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 3 1 2 MEMBERS PRESENT: 3 MR. CHARLES R. MORGAN, Chairperson PROFESSOR PAUL KURTZ 4 JUDGE C. ANDREW FULLER MS. PHYLLIS HOLMEN 5 MR. JERRY GRIFFIN REPRESENTATIVE PAUL HOLMES 6 MS. FLORA DEVINE MR. ROBERT E. KELLER 7 MR. C. WILSON DUBOSE MR. CHARLES T. LESTER, JR. 8 MS. AASIA MUSTAKEEM MR. GEORGE O. LAWSON, JR. 9 JUDGE LAWTON STEPHENS MR. WILLIAM IDE 10 JUDGE A. GLENN TAYLOR 11 GUESTS PRESENT: MR. JAY B. MARTIN, AOC 12 MS. EMILY W. WARD, BELLSOUTH MS. KENDALL BUTTERWORTH, BELLSOUTH 13 MS. JUDITH P. KRODE, BELLSOUTH MR. MICHAEL B. SHAPIRO, GIDC 14 MS. SARAH SMITH, GIDC MS. MICHELE L. SUMMER, GIDC 15 MR. MICHAEL B. SHARP, GIDC MS. AIMEE MAXWELL, GIDC 16 MS. MARIANNE MCMILLAN, GIDC MS. DEBRA MUBLER, GIDC 17 MR. ALEXANDER RUNDLET, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 18 MS. MARION CHARTOFF, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 19 MR. STEPHEN B. BRIGHT, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 20 MS. GINNY LOONEY MR. BILL RANKIN, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION 21 MS. KIMBER SMITH, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION MS. EMILY KOPP, GEORGIA PUBLIC RADIO 22 MR. R. SPANGENBERG, THE SPANGENBERG GROUP MS. JAMES DOWNING, THE SPANGENBERG GROUP 23 MS. JENNIFER RIGGS MS. CHONG KIM 24 REVEREND TIM REED MR. HULETT H. ASKEW 25 PRESENTATION: KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 4 1 2 COUNCIL FOR INDIGENT CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS 3 MR. DREW POWELL, PUBLIC DEFENDER, NORTHERN JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 4 MR. MARK STRAUGHAN, CONTRACT DEFENDER IN 5 OF 6 5 COUNTIES OF THE OCONEE JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 6 MS. KAREN WILKES, FORMER CONTRACT DEFENDER, FLOYD COUNTY 7 MR. JERRY WORD, CONTRACT DEFENDER, CARROLL COUNTY 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: First of all, I would like 3 to welcome everybody for coming to this beautiful 4 location. We'd like to thank particularly Bill 5 Ide and Long, Aldridge for hosting us this 6 morning. We really appreciate it. 7 I think what we'll do is start off with our 8 usual tradition of going around the room and the 9 Commissioners identify themselves, and then our 10 guests so everybody can know who everybody else 11 is. 12 I'm Charles Morgan. I'm the chair of the 13 Commission, and next to me is Paul Kurtz. 14 MR. KURTZ: I'm Paul Kurtz. I'm the 15 reporter for the Commission. 16 MR. IDE: I'm Bill Ide. I guess today I'm 17 sort of the stage manager, and so you can get your 18 parking validated out front and there are 19 facilities down this hall, and I'm glad to have 20 you. 21 MR. GRIFFIN: If I came down the one-way 22 street, Bill, will you give me my $5.00 back? We 23 couldn't get in the lot anyway. 24 MR. IDE: I'm sorry about that. 25 MS. MUSTAKEEM: I'm Aasia Mustakeem and I'm KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 6 1 a member of the Commission and an attorney at 2 Powell, Goldstein. 3 MS. HOLMEN: I'm Phyllis Holmen, a member of 4 the Commission and Executive Director of Georgia 5 Legal Services. 6 MS. DEVINE: I'm Flora Devine, also a member 7 of the Commission and representing the Georgia 8 Indigent Defense Council, and I'm also an attorney 9 with Cobb County. 10 MR. GRIFFIN: Jerry Griffin with the 11 Association of County Commissions. 12 MR. LAWSON: I'm George Lawson. I'm a 13 private practitioner. I am also a member of the 14 Commission. 15 JUDGE TAYLOR: I'm a member of the 16 Commission, I'm Glenn Taylor, former chief judge 17 from St. Simons Island, Georgia. 18 MR. DUBOSE: My name is Wilson DuBose. I'm 19 in private practice in Atlanta with Winkler, 20 Dubose and Davis. I am also a member of the 21 Commission. 22 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Why don't we go over here. 23 MR. RUNDLETT: I am Alex Rundlett, Southern 24 Center for Human Rights. 25 MR. POWELL: I am Drew Powell. I'm the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 7 1 Public Defender of the Northern Judicial Circuit. 2 MR. BRIGHT: I am Steve Bright. I'm a 3 lawyer in Atlanta. 4 MR. STRAUGHAN: Mark Straughan, Public 5 Defender of the Oconee Circuit. 6 I'm Stan Raleigh with the Georgia House of 7 Representatives research office. 8 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm Mike Shapiro. I'm 9 director of the Georgia Indigent Defense Council. 10 MR. WORD: I'm Jerry Word from Carrollton. 11 I'm a lawyer and also a contract defender out in 12 Carroll County. 13 MS. SUMMER: I'm Michele Summer. I'm also 14 with the Georgia Indigent Defense Council. 15 MS. MAXWELL: I'm Aimee Maxwell. I'm the 16 professional education director of the Georgia 17 Indigent Defense Council. 18 MS. MCMILLAN: Marianne McMillan with the 19 Georgia Indigent Defense Council. 20 MS. MULDER: Debra Mulder, Georgia Indigent 21 Defense Council. 22 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Maybe we'll start with 23 you. 24 MR. MARTIN: I'm Jay Martin, Administrative 25 Office of the Courts. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 8 1 MS. KOPP: I'm Emily Kopp. I'm with the 2 Georgia Public Radio. 3 MR. SPANGENBERG: I'm Bob Spangenberg with 4 The Spangenberg Group here for the week with my 5 colleagues, and when is it going to get warm? 6 MR. KURTZ: You brought that damn weather 7 with you. 8 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: He just wanted to know 9 when baseball season starts. 10 MR. SPANGENBERG: That's right. 11 MR. DOWNING: I'm James Downing, also with 12 The Spangenberg Group. 13 MS. RIGGS: I'm Jennifer Riggs with the 14 Private Defense Council here in Georgia. 15 MS. KIM: Chong Kim here representing the 16 Georgia Pacific Asian Community. 17 MS. BUTTERWORTH: I am Kendall Butterworth 18 with BellSouth Corporation. 19 MS. WARD: I'm Emily Ward with BellSouth 20 Corporation. 21 MS. KRODE: Judith Krode, BellSouth 22 Corporation. 23 MR. RANKIN: Bill Rankin, Atlanta 24 Journal-Constitution. 25 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Okay. Well, thanks KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 9 1 everybody for being here. I don't know if 2 everybody got a copy of the agenda. If you 3 didn't, there should be a copy available for this 4 morning. 5 Also, one of our 12 commissioners, Chuck 6 Clay, unfortunately will not be here this morning, 7 has arranged for a meeting with the state -- the 8 Senate Judiciary Committee. And I'm going to ask 9 our reporter to -- this is an open session this 10 afternoon. I'm going to ask our reporter to 11 briefly describe what that's all about. 12 MR. KURTZ: Well, as you may remember 13 several meetings ago the Commission, along with 14 Chuck as a member of the Commission, thought that 15 it would be -- suggested that it would be a good 16 idea at some point in the process to, before too 17 much longer, that we touch base with the 18 legislative leaders and inform them of our 19 existence, our make-up, and where we're -- what 20 our timetable is and what we're about. 21 And so that's what's going to happen today, 22 and my understanding is that members of both, the 23 Senate Judiciary Committee and both of the House 24 Judiciary Committees, each House has a regular 25 Judiciary Committee and a Special Judiciary KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 10 1 Committee, and that all four of these committees 2 have been invited to be there this afternoon. 3 And I will be representing the Commission 4 along with, I guess, I think Kendall is going to 5 be there with me and Charles I know cannot make 6 it. And I'm going to be just giving them an 7 update on what we've done, what we're about, the 8 membership of the committee, kind of -- those of 9 you who may -- I know Phyllis was there at the 10 State Bar executive committee meeting in Athens 11 awhile ago, sometime this fall. 12 MS. HOLMEN: October. The football game. 13 MR. KURTZ: The football weekend for sure. 14 MS. HOLMEN: Right. That was the football 15 weekend. 16 MR. KURTZ: That's if anybody wants to come 17 to Athens where I am, but it will be similar to 18 that kind of presentation. 19 I'm going to talk about the makeup of the 20 Commission; what we have done in the way of 21 meetings; who we have heard from; the fact that we 22 have done some visitations on our own; the fact 23 that we've hired The Spangenberg Group; where we 24 think we're headed; the kinds of things we've 25 heard, and just to let them know and, of course, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 11 1 respond to any questions. 2 I don't intend to get into anything 3 substantive in the sense of telling them what it 4 is we're going to report or recommend because, of 5 course, I have no idea what it is we're going to 6 report or recommend, and so it's easy not knowing 7 anything. They cannot find anything that I don't 8 know. 9 And several of the Senators I regret, or am 10 proud to say, are former students of mine, and so 11 I can always threaten them with changing their 12 grades and I'll deal with it that way. 13 And so that's what's going to happen this 14 afternoon, and any or all of you are welcomed to 15 come at 3:30 in Room 107 of the Legislative Office 16 Building, is that the title of it? 17 MS. BUTTERWORTH: Yes, that's right. 18 MR. KURTZ: Is that the south employee 19 building? 20 MS. BUTTERWORTH: No. 21 MR. KURTZ: Jerry is going to hold my hand 22 and walk me down there. 23 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Kendall, would you mention 24 the address again? 25 MS. BUTTERWORTH: Yes. It's Room 307. The KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 12 1 Legislative Building. It's located at 18 Capitol 2 Square. 3 MR. DUBOSE: That's right next to the 4 Supreme Court building, I believe. 5 MR. KURTZ: I'll get there. I'll have a 6 couple hours between now and then to find my way 7 there. I'll get there, I promise. 8 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Okay. That's a public 9 session? 10 MR. KURTZ: I think so. 11 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Okay. I think we're ready 12 to begin our program. I would like to, first of 13 all, thank our speakers for being here. We really 14 appreciate it. I would also like to thank my 15 fellow commissioner, Wilson DuBose, for agreeing 16 to be our MC this morning and introduce our 17 speakers. 18 After the speakers make their remarks, we 19 will have a period of time for questioning and 20 comments with the members of the Commission, and 21 if there is time we will be able to have questions 22 from the floor, but that's going to be at the 23 discretion of the chair, depending on how much 24 time we have because I think we've got to be 25 finished today at noon. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 13 1 And so with that, I'll ask Wilson to kick us 2 off. 3 MR. DUBOSE: All right. Thank you, Charles. 4 We have four people who have agreed to speak to us 5 today and each have agreed to travel rather long 6 distances to be here, and for that we're very 7 appreciative. 8 Is Karen Wilkes here yet? 9 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: No. 10 MR. DUBOSE: Karen is traveling from Rome 11 today. She said she may be a little bit late 12 getting here today. The other three that we have 13 with us today are Drew Powell, and as I introduce 14 you just come up and have a seat up here. 15 MR. POWELL: Any particular place? 16 MR. DUBOSE: We have several chairs. 17 MR. IDE: By the mic, I think. 18 MR. DUBOSE: Mark Straughan and Jerry Word. 19 Drew Powell is a Public Defender in the 20 Mountain Judicial Circuit, and it covers three 21 counties. He's been doing that for several years. 22 Before that he was in private practice in Atlanta. 23 He lives in Clarkston, Georgia. We had hoped to 24 have him speak at an earlier meeting where we had 25 other Public Defenders. He agreed to come today, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 14 1 and we are most appreciative of him being here 2 today, and he is going to speak to us about his 3 perspective as a Public Defender in that part of 4 the state. 5 Mark Straughan is a contract defender. Mark 6 is from McRae, Georgia, and he has been a Public 7 Defender for, or a contract defender for -- how 8 long again, Mark? 9 MR. STRAUGHAN: Twenty years. 10 MR. DUBOSE: Twenty years. We've heard a 11 lot about the contract defender system, and we are 12 glad to have Mark with us today as well as Jerry 13 Word, who is a contract defender in Carrollton. 14 He's in private practice in Carrollton, and also 15 serves as a contract defender there. 16 Karen Wilkes was a former contract defender 17 and she now has a private practice in Rome, 18 Georgia, and she will be joining us, hopefully, 19 later in the morning. 20 And why don't we just get started? Each of 21 you have been invited to give your perspective as 22 a Public Defender in the case of Drew, or a 23 contract defender in the case of Mark and Jerry. 24 And Drew, since we had hoped to have you 25 earlier, we'll give you the floor first, and then KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 15 1 we'll move on to Mark, and then to Jerry. 2 MR. POWELL: Okay. Thank you and I 3 appreciate your words. I am the Public Defender 4 of the Mountain Judicial Circuit. We cover a 5 three-county area that's Habersham, Stephens and 6 Rabun County. We are in the upper right-hand 7 corner of Georgia. We border South Carolina. Two 8 of my counties -- all three of my counties border 9 South Carolina, and Rabun County borders North 10 Carolina, and so we're right up there in the 11 corner. 12 I also, before I became a Public Defender 13 back in June of 2000, was there in private 14 practice in Atlanta. Have worked in the indigent 15 defense systems of DeKalb County, Fulton County, 16 Gwinnett County, as well as where I am now. And 17 so I've got experience in any of those counties 18 and so feel free to ask me any questions about any 19 of those and I can tell you about my experiences 20 in those. 21 I learned how to try cases by picking up 22 cases in Fulton County by going down there and 23 putting my card on the Judge's bench, like 24 everybody else, and being appointed the cases. 25 That's how I learned how to try a case. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 16 1 Other than having worked with Larry 2 Schneider at the DeKalb County Public Defender's 3 office when I was a third year law student doing 4 their preliminary hearing calendar three days a 5 week. 6 And my last experience before going as a 7 Public Defender up in the Mountain Judicial 8 Circuit was working on the appointed list in 9 Gwinnett County. And so I've got experience in 10 almost all different types except for contract 11 attorney. 12 My office, as I said, covers a three-county 13 area. Last year, and I've written you all a 14 letter and I've given you all the numbers that we 15 had from last year. We run our numbers -- I've 16 also included in my materials to each of you a 17 copy of our court schedule for the year 2002. 18 Last year our office opened 632 new cases. 19 Our office consists of myself, an assistant Public 20 Defender, one investigator, and one office 21 manager/secretary. The District Attorney's office 22 in our area has five attorneys, three secretaries, 23 one investigator, and one victim witness 24 coordinator is what they call it. 25 We also, unfortunately, have to represent KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 17 1 folks whose children have been taken away by the 2 Department of Family and Children Services. We 3 opened 42 of those cases last year. Those cases 4 are extremely, extremely time consuming. We 5 represent folks in all three counties. We 6 probably represent about 90 percent of the poor 7 people whose children have been taken away from 8 them. 9 MR. KURTZ: Is there a separate contract 10 with DFACS? 11 MR. POWELL: No, sir. The judges appoint us 12 to those cases, the Public Defender's office. 13 It's always been that way in the circuit. I don't 14 know how that started. I would dearly love not to 15 do it because I'm not a civil attorney and do not 16 feel that I am qualified to handle those cases 17 because I have not done them before. 18 MR. KURTZ: How old is the Public Defender's 19 office? 20 MR. POWELL: The Public Defender's office 21 was established, I believe, in 1989. 22 MR. KURTZ: And you are the fourth? Fifth? 23 MR. POWELL: I am the fourth Public Defender 24 that they have had. The last Public Defender was 25 Dwayne Madden, who was the assistant Public KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 18 1 Defender in DeKalb County. 2 MR. HOLMES: What percent of your Public 3 Defenders qualify for indigent defense? Do you 4 find yourself representing 90 percent? 80 5 percent? 6 MR. POWELL: We represent probably anywhere 7 between 50 and 70 percent of all of the the 8 defendants in the Superior Courts. Of course, not 9 all of our cases actually make it to being 10 indicted. We close a large number of cases before 11 they even make it that far. 12 Last year we closed 391 felony cases. I 13 primarily handle felonies by myself. My assistant 14 runs around and does the DFACS cases, which take 15 up the vast majority of her time. 16 We also represent folks in the State Court 17 of Habersham County. We do not represent people 18 in the State Court of Stephens County. And in 19 Habersham County, unfortunately, we're not allowed 20 to -- we don't have the manpower to do it the way 21 I would like to do it, which is to be in there for 22 every arraignment, accept anybody who qualifies 23 for our office and represent them. 24 As it stands right now, we will only go over 25 to the State Court if they seek us out and come to KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 19 1 our office because we simply just don't have the 2 manpower to do it any other way. 3 MR. HOLMES: Do you have an interpreter? 4 How do you handle Hispanics? 5 MR. POWELL: When we have Hispanics, we have 6 to hire interpreters. We have to go out and find 7 interpreters. In court, we have to get an order 8 from the Court agreeing to pay for the 9 interpreters. 10 The judges make us responsible for having an 11 attorney -- an interpreter in court. It's up to 12 us, and if we don't get it done our clients pay 13 for it. 14 MS. HOLMEN: But the Court ultimately pays? 15 MR. POWELL: The Court ultimately pays for 16 the interpreters, but they want somebody local who 17 is not going to cost them a lot of money and, 18 unfortunately, nobody local has been approved by 19 the Court, certified by the Supreme Court. 20 The closest we can get to that is 21 Gainesville. We have several in Gainesville which 22 we prefer to use; however, our judges get on us 23 about the cost for getting somebody out of 24 Gainesville, and so we tend to use -- we have a 25 small Bible college, Taccoa Falls College is in KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 20 1 one of our counties, and we have a lot of children 2 of missionaries there who grew up in South America 3 and Mexico and so they speak fluent Spanish and 4 they're good at that, but I don't think they 5 understand the rules and they don't understand 6 that they have to interpret everything that's said 7 and not interpret the interpretation, but to say 8 exactly what is said. And that's why we prefer to 9 use certified interpreters, but it's difficult. 10 We also have a fairly largely Laotian 11 community in our circuit, and it's difficult to 12 find a Laotian interpreter. And increasingly we 13 have a large Guatemalan community who do not speak 14 Spanish, particularly the women. They only speak 15 indian dialects. Dialects of Miam, such as 16 Candalall, which are languages that I never heard 17 of until recently. 18 And, unfortunately, most of the women do not 19 speak even Spanish. Their husbands or boyfriends 20 will speak Spanish, but a lot of the times they're 21 being charged with beating on their boyfriend or 22 hitting their boyfriend, or stabbing their 23 boyfriend or husband. I mean, a domestic 24 situation, and you can't have your boyfriend or 25 husband interpret for you because they're the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 21 1 victim, and so it makes it difficult. 2 MS. DEVINE: Do you find that the domestic 3 cases are the majority of the cases for the 4 Guatemalan, Laotian, and perhaps even the 5 Hispanics? 6 MR. POWELL: We have had, for most of our 7 Guatemalans, we have had mostly DFACS cases than 8 anything else. There is a cultural problem that 9 we have run into, and the difference between the 10 Latin-American cultures and our cultures about 11 what is acceptable in child rearing, and it's 12 fairly prevalent, and our DFACS has no compunction 13 in going out and snatching kids for any reason. 14 And what they don't understand is that a lot 15 of times they take the kids because they feel that 16 the people are living in substandard housing when 17 it is probably the best place that they've ever 18 lived in, you know. Maybe it's a trailer with no 19 heat, but it's a lot better than that one room 20 shack that they lived in -- 21 MS. DEVINE: With no floor. 22 MR. POWELL: -- with no floor down in 23 Guatemala. And so that's something that we run 24 into a lot. 25 As I said, we opened 632 cases last year. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 22 1 We closed 568 capital cases last year. We had 289 2 cases open on January 1 of this year. And so 3 that's 857 cases that we worked on last year. 4 When you divide that by our budget, which 5 fiscal year 2001-2002, June to July, was $191,567. 6 That's 230 -- and $223.64 per case we worked on. 7 That's what it cost our commissions. 8 MR. LAWSON: How many jury trials did you 9 do? 10 MR. POWELL: We did 11 trials last year, 11 11 criminal trials. There were also a few 12 termination of civil rights trials. We won six of 13 our trials, lost four, and had one tie. The tie 14 was one where a person was charged with aggravated 15 assault on a police officer and possession of a 16 firearm. 17 I got him acquitted on aggravated assault 18 and he was convicted on the possession of a 19 firearm. I consider that a tie. 20 He's gone to prison for five years, but he 21 was very mentally ill. It was prevalent during 22 the trial. In fact, during the trial -- the crime 23 had taken place in December, and during the trial 24 he was extremely psychotic. He stood up and 25 started shouting where was Santa Claus during all KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 23 1 of that. 2 MR. TAYLOR: So your average is one jury 3 trial a month, basically? 4 MR. POWELL: That is our average; however, 5 it usually does not work out that way. We have a 6 regularly scheduled trial 24 weeks of the year. 7 They usually add two to four more weeks a year, 8 and so technically I'm on trial every other week; 9 however, I wish it was scheduled that way. It is 10 not. 11 It is scheduled starting in -- starting in 12 April of this year. I mean, in April of this year 13 I will be in trial for seven straight weeks and 14 then I'll have a couple of weeks off and then a 15 few more weeks. The next term I will have ten 16 straight weeks of trial. It just works that way. 17 This last term of court in November I tried, 18 in the space of nine days, I tried a murder case, 19 a drug case, and the aggravated assault case, and 20 that was all within a nine day period back to back 21 to back. 22 MR. KURTZ: Who hired you? 23 MR. POWELL: I was hired by the tripartite 24 committee. 25 MR. KURTZ: And that was the judge? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 24 1 MR. POWELL: It is two local attorneys and 2 one member of the county commission is our 3 tripartite committee. 4 MR. KURTZ: And is it an open-ended 5 appointment or was it a term of years? 6 MR. POWELL: According to the statute, 7 Public Defenders are appointed two years. 8 Technically, my appointment runs out in June. I 9 assume they're going to reappoint me, assuming 10 that I still want it at that point in time. 11 It's not unusual for us to work 80 hours a 12 week. It's a question of how much longer I can 13 keep up without my health dying on me, basically. 14 Our office is extremely overwhelmed. 15 MS. DEVINE: And your office staff is, 16 again, you said? 17 MR. POWELL: I have myself and one assistant 18 Public Defender, an investigator, and an office 19 manager/secretary. And so there is four of us, 20 and we go up against five attorneys in the 21 District Attorney's office, two special assistant 22 Attorney Generals for the DFACS cases, and a 23 solicitor for the State Court of Habersham County. 24 Yes, sir. 25 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Drew, I see that you feel KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 25 1 that the resources of your office are insufficient 2 to meet the demands of the cases. 3 MR. POWELL: Yes, sir. I believe so. I 4 believe we need about two more attorneys. If we 5 had two more attorneys we can do fine. 6 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Let me ask you this: 7 What, if anything, have you done to try to get 8 that to happen? 9 MR. POWELL: Last year I went to the county 10 commissions during the budget process. I told 11 them we needed more attorneys. I asked for one 12 attorney hoping that that would not be too much. 13 At first our commissions sought to cut my 14 budget, and I told them there was no way they 15 could cut our budget. We just couldn't survive on 16 it. They ended up increasing our budget by 17 $6,000. 18 It's difficult to find people to work for 19 our office a lot. Part of it is the pay 20 disparity. I, myself, make $14,000 a year less 21 than the lowest paid Assistant District Attorney 22 in my circuit, and about $36,000 less than the 23 D.A. 24 MR. HOLMES: Do you handle any outside 25 cases? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 26 1 MR. POWELL: No, sir. I'm only allowed to 2 handle what I have, and I wouldn't have time. 3 MR. HOLMES: Do y'all have any kind of an 4 association or anything like the DAs or the judges 5 who lobby for your salaries and your retirements? 6 MR. POWELL: Well, unfortunately, it's up to 7 each individual county commission. I mean, it's 8 not something where we can -- it's not like we're 9 the DAs where they can go to the legislature and 10 lobby for their salaries. 11 We have to do it for people like me where 12 I've got three county commissioners, and I imagine 13 that Mark has, what, five that you've got to go 14 talk to? And you've got one county commissioner 15 or two? 16 MR. STRAUGHAN: No, we've got seven. 17 MR. POWELL: Seven county commissioners. 18 You've got to go and talk to each of these 19 commissioners, and it's up to them when they're 20 going to do it. 21 I've got one county who claims that it's 22 broke; that it's days away from bankruptcy, and 23 that's Stephens County. And Habersham County is 24 telling us that they don't expect their revenues 25 to be as good as they were last year. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 27 1 Rabun County is doing it just because their 2 land is selling like crazy up there because it's, 3 you know, vacation destination. 4 MR. KURTZ: In the allocation among the 5 three counties, is it simply pro rata or -- 6 MR. POWELL: It's proportional to 7 population. 8 MR. KURTZ: Population, not to caseload or 9 anything. 10 MR. POWELL: Not to caseload. Habersham 11 County pays 44 percent of our budget. 12 MR. KURTZ: Because it has 44 percent of the 13 population? 14 MR. POWELL: Right. Stephens County, I 15 believe, is 30, and I believe the remainder is 16 picked up by Rabun County. 17 MR. KURTZ: All the funding is from the 18 county? 19 MR. POWELL: All the funding is from the 20 county. We do get some money from the GIDC. 21 MR. STRAUGHAN: I misspoke. It's one county 22 commission but seven commissioners. 23 MR. POWELL: Okay. 24 MR. KURTZ: And what proportion of your 25 budget? This 191 is the budget for the office KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 28 1 that includes the GIDC money? 2 MR. POWELL: The GIDC sends us checks to 3 give to our county commissioners, and that's the 4 legislature's proportion that they pay plus from 5 the sheriffs' and clerks' fund, and I think that 6 works out. And, Mike, you would know better than 7 I do. It's about 22 a year, or something like 8 that? 9 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. 10 MR. POWELL: About 22 a year. 11 MR. KURTZ: 22 of the 191. 12 MR. POWELL: Of the 191. And, generally, 13 they take that money and it goes into their 14 general found and we never see it. 15 MR. KURTZ: And so that's why it's part of 16 the 191? 17 MR. POWELL: Right. It's included in that 18 191. 19 MR. HOLMES: How long have y'all had the 20 Public Defender system? 21 MR. POWELL: They have had it running there 22 since 1989 and our judges -- I mean, I will say 23 that my judges prefer the Public Defender system 24 and wants the Public Defender system to stay up 25 there. They think it's the best use of resources. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 29 1 The problem is I just don't think the county 2 commissions understand that. They don't 3 understand the need for it. It's not tangible. 4 They can't touch it, they can't feel it, they 5 can't drive over it like a road, you know? They 6 really just don't understand, and they don't 7 understand the constitutional imparity. 8 MR. KURTZ: Do the judges help you? Have 9 the judges been of any assistance to you in 10 lobbying the commissioners? 11 MR. POWELL: The judges have helped us to 12 some point. I wish that they would get more 13 involved in lobbying the commissioners. I wish my 14 tripartite committee would get more involved in 15 lobbying the commissioners. 16 MR. KURTZ: How many Supreme Court judges? 17 MR. POWELL: We have two Superior Court 18 judges, and they also act as the juvenile court 19 judges. 20 MR. GRIFFIN: What is the constitutional 21 imperative of the county commissioners? 22 MR. POWELL: No, the constitutional 23 imperative is that the indigent defense must be 24 added, must be funded. 25 MR. GRIFFIN: No. The county does not have KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 30 1 a responsibility unless they sign a contract. I 2 mean, the constitutional imperative is more people 3 is served under the constitution and somebody has 4 got to pay for it and right now; unfortunately, 5 the state is leaving it up to the counties. I 6 wish it were otherwise. 7 MS. DEVINE: Drew, would you talk a little 8 bit more about the attorney-client relationship, 9 and have you had any clients to complain about 10 your availability? 11 MR. POWELL: Oh, clients complain about my 12 availability all the time, unfortunately. 13 MS. DEVINE: To the judges? 14 MR. POWELL: To the judges. Bar complaints. 15 I get, probably, one bar complaint a month where 16 they send the guy back and send me a copy of the 17 guy's letter saying please go and talk to him in 18 the jail. 19 The problem being that I've got three jails 20 with lots of folks. I'm running from courthouse 21 to courthouse as it is trying to get all of my 22 work done. I'm constantly in court, or in trial, 23 or preparing for court or trial and I really don't 24 have time to go to the jail and see these folks. 25 My investigator has become, instead of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 31 1 investigating the cases for me, has become my jail 2 liaison. He goes to the jail everyday and talks 3 to inmates and try to calm them down, but even 4 still we don't get to see them. And I'm lucky if 5 I see some of my clients before they even have a 6 preliminary hearing. I meet a significant portion 7 of them at the preliminary hearing. 8 MR. KURTZ: Ballpark estimate. You've got 9 three jails. How many clients do you have in each 10 of the jails? 11 MR. POWELL: Habersham County, I have about 12 40 right now. In Stephens County, I have about 13 22, off the top of my head. In Rabun County I 14 only have about six, but Rabun county doesn't like 15 to keep folks in jail. They have a sheriff whose 16 main goal is to get the folks out of jail unless 17 they've done something really, really bad, then 18 they need to stay in jail, but if they've done 19 something that's not too bad he will go to the 20 judges and say you need to give this gentleman a 21 low bond so he can get out of jail, and I'm very 22 thankful for that. If I didn't have that it would 23 be a mess. 24 MS. HOLMEN: Are you able to do bond 25 hearings to get people out of jail? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 32 1 MR. POWELL: We file bond hearings. It 2 takes the judges about -- they usually are 3 scheduled anywhere from four to six weeks after we 4 file for them. And so by the time we get there, 5 if they had money to get out they no longer have 6 money to get out. 7 MS. MUSTAKEEM: You indicated in Habersham 8 County you are not able to go to the jail to see 9 who needs assistance; that you wait for these 10 people to seek you out? 11 MR. POWELL: Well, that's in State Court. 12 In the Superior Court my investigator goes to the 13 jail at Habersham County everyday to accept 14 applications and do intake interviews. The 15 problem is my investigator shouldn't be doing 16 intake interviews. An attorney should be doing 17 intake interviews because my investigator doesn't 18 understand or know the issues necessarily. 19 Issues like search issues that come up, 20 search and seizure issues. He will come back and 21 tell me and I won't lie to you. I mean, there are 22 cases where I feel like I should be filing a 23 motion to suppress. I don't have the time, 24 personally, to offer an alternative and say what 25 do you want to do? And most of the time they get KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 33 1 a plea. 2 We've been fairly successful when we do 3 that. I'd like to think that that's because I'm a 4 good lawyer. I don't know if it's that or 5 anything else, but we've been fairly successful 6 when we do go to trial. 7 MR. KURTZ: How much is your investigator -- 8 what's the salary? 9 MR. POWELL: My investigator makes about 10 $28,500. 11 MR. KURTZ: And your assistant? 12 MR. POWELL: My assistant Public Defender 13 makes $39,500. She got a $200 raise. 14 MR. KURTZ: That's out of the $6,000 per 15 month? 16 MR. POWELL: Yeah. 17 MR. KURTZ: And you? 18 MR. POWELL: I make $64,255. 19 MR. KURTZ: And the DA makes $100,000? 20 MR. POWELL: The DA makes about $98,000. 21 MR. KURTZ: How long has the DA been a DA? 22 MR. POWELL: He's been the DA for quite 23 sometime, but he mainly only draws his state 24 salary. He has a small stipend. All of our ADAs 25 are state funded positions. All of my -- my KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 34 1 least -- my DA -- my ADA with the least experience 2 has 16 years. 3 MR. KURTZ: That's the rookie. 4 MR. POWELL: That's the rookie. And so 5 we're at a distinct disadvantage. They're all 6 extremely knowledgeable, and they know their 7 stuff, they've been around forever. Not 8 necessarily in our circuit, but they've got an 9 incredible amount of experience. 10 MR. KURTZ: How long out of law school are 11 you? 12 MR. POWELL: I've been out of law school 13 since 1991. 14 MR. KURTZ: And your assistant? 15 MR. POWELL: My assistant has been out for 16 four or five years, and she's been with us since 17 February -- well, this month will be her one-year 18 anniversary. 19 MR. KURTZ: One-year anniversay? 20 MR. POWELL: She did real estate. 21 MR. KURTZ: Do you expect that she will stay 22 another year and then go on? 23 MR. POWELL: If the stress doesn't drive her 24 out of the job, I'm hoping that she'll stay for 25 another year. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 35 1 MR. HOLMES: How do you all handle the 2 multiple defendants? 3 MR. POWELL: If there is a conflict we will 4 ask the Court to appoint someone. 5 MR. HOLMES: Does that usually get done? 6 MR. POWELL: It does. Of course, the Courts 7 do complain about the number of conflicts, but we 8 can't help it that we live in a small community 9 and sometimes victim on Case 1 wants us to 10 represent them on Case 2 and we can't do that, of 11 course. 12 Or our favorite cases are the ones where we 13 have co-defendants and don't know we have 14 co-defendants until we get to the preliminary 15 hearing and then we discover we have 16 co-defendants. 17 MR. HOLMES: How does your office related to 18 the DAs? Good? 19 MR. POWELL: It's funny because it's 20 different from county to county. Our District 21 Attorney has pretty much assigned different 22 assistants to each of the counties and it varies. 23 In one of my counties it's difficult to get 24 anything done mainly because we are not on the 25 same page. They don't give me discovery very KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 36 1 easy. I have to fight them for everything. 2 My two other counties I get along fine with 3 the Assistant District Attorneys. In fact, we go 4 out and have dinner together every once in a 5 while. They're good folks. We get along fine. 6 We may not always agree on the case, but it's very 7 collegial and we know that after it's over, we 8 might fight like the dickens in court, but after 9 court we know we're going to have a beer and relax 10 and get it done. 11 And I don't have any problems getting 12 anything done in those two counties. And so I 13 don't know if it's a personality thing or what. 14 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Drew, one thing you said a 15 minute ago really got my attention. You talked 16 about a Motion to Suppress and so forth, and I 17 wanted to focus again a little bit more on what 18 you're seeing is a gap between your ability to 19 handle all of these cases and just the resources 20 that are made available, and you referenced the 21 constitutional guarantees. 22 I mean, do you feel that this gap is causing 23 a lack of appropriate, not really from fault of 24 your own best efforts, but is that causing a lack 25 of constitutional protection for the Defendants? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 37 1 MR. POWELL: I think that our circuit could 2 be ripe for a lawsuit. I'm not going to lie. I 3 mean, I think that if some enterprising Defendant 4 came along and tried to sue us for ineffective 5 assistance of counsel, they would stand a good -- 6 institutionalized ineffective assistance of 7 counsel, they would have a pretty decent lawsuit. 8 And it's not through any fault of mine, I would 9 say. I think I'm trying as hard as I can. 10 My own personal physician wrote me a 11 prescription and ordered me not to work on Sundays 12 anymore because I was working seven days a week 13 trying to get the job done and my blood pressure 14 went through the roof. And so he told me that I 15 couldn't do that. 16 And it's an overwhelming job. I don't get 17 to file as many motions as I feel like I should 18 file. I certainly don't get to get creative in 19 some of my defenses. And there are folks who 20 understand -- some of my clients understand that I 21 don't have time to devote to their case, and so it 22 effects their willingness to go to trial for 23 something that they believe in. 24 I can't tell you the number of times when my 25 clients tell me I didn't really do this, but I'm KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 38 1 going to plead guilty because I know what I've got 2 here. I don't know that you're going to have time 3 to work on my case and get it done right, and so 4 I'm going to take this plea bargain. I mean, I 5 have had them say that to me and it hurts, you 6 know. 7 MR. LAWSON: And your response is. 8 MR. POWELL: And my response is, if you want 9 to go to trial I will go to trial with you and I 10 will try my hardest to get you acquitted if that's 11 what you want. But they've seen the reality of 12 the situation. I mean, they know because I 13 haven't seen them. They've been sitting in jail 14 for six months and up where we are the fact that 15 we don't have court but -- yeah, we have two terms 16 of court a year. 17 Terms of court are six months long where I 18 am, and if you don't get indicted that term you're 19 going to sit eight to 10, 12 -- I've got people 20 sitting in jail for over a year that haven't been 21 indicted. 22 MS. KIM: Do you think the DAs know that 23 about your clients and so they will treat clients 24 who have private attorneys better, give them 25 better deals? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 39 1 MR. POWELL: One of my Assistant District 2 Attorneys gives everybody the same deals, okay? I 3 have had one of them on the sly tell me that he 4 gives people a little bit better deal for having a 5 private because he appreciates the fact that they 6 went out and hired someone. 7 My other Assistant District Attorney and I 8 keep fighting about discoveries, and so sometimes 9 I don't get the best deal because he's mad at me, 10 which happens. I mean, personality conflicts 11 always factor in on what kind of deals you can get 12 our client; however, I have yet to lose to him 13 when we try the case. 14 MS. DEVINE: Is that different where you are 15 now than when you were working out of Fulton 16 County? 17 MR. POWELL: It's a different mind-set, and 18 it's an interesting -- there are interesting 19 differences. 20 I don't have the time to investigate the 21 cases that I wish that I had to track down the 22 witnesses for my clients like I used to. I also, 23 however, don't do as good of a discovery as I used 24 to, too. 25 You know, I will say as much as I used to KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 40 1 dislike dealing with police officers in the Metro 2 area, when they wrote a report they wrote a 3 report, you know? They actually put things in the 4 report that mattered. They didn't conveniently 5 remember things at the last minute when they're on 6 the stand that were never in their report, which 7 is partially why I keep winning trials. 8 They don't go out and do a drug case and 9 identify the guy and then put out a warrant for 10 him six months later and go arrest him, and then 11 your report says we did an undercover operation 12 and this guy sold dope. That's the whole purpose 13 of the discovery. 14 And so I -- you know, for me, you know, 15 there were a lot of things in the Metro area where 16 I think police officers were a little bit more 17 professional about what they did, which makes it a 18 little bit -- amazing as it may seem to everybody 19 who works in the Metro area, I didn't know how 20 good I had it until I left. 21 And so, I mean, I was used to having a lot 22 more discovery than I do now. We have to go out 23 and find things. 24 MR. KURTZ: You said you had 11 trials last 25 year. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 41 1 MR. POWELL: Right. 2 MR. KURTZ: Are those like one-day trials? 3 MR. POWELL: They varied from case to case. 4 We had a murder trial that went three days. 5 MR. KURTZ: Is that the longest one? 6 MR. POWELL: That's the longest trial I had 7 last year, yeah. Some of them only last an 8 afternoon. 9 MR. DUBOSE: Do you try all of them or does 10 your assistant try some of them? 11 MR. POWELL: I tried 10 of the 11 last year. 12 My assistant tried one of those trials, but she 13 does most of the DFACS work and so she's 14 constantly in court doing deprivation hearings, 15 termination hearings, and mainly having to deal 16 with the DFACS folks. 17 We have a significant number of them that 18 have extremely low IQs, and it makes it very 19 difficult to deal with them because on the one 20 hand you're having to balance -- you may think 21 that maybe this person doesn't need to be raising 22 their child, but your job is to try to get that 23 child back with their parents, and so it's 24 difficult to deal with them. 25 We also have a significant number of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 42 1 mentally ill folks up there, and a mental health 2 system that's not very good. I mean, I thought 3 the mental health system was bad in the Metro area 4 until I went to rural Georgia where it's virtually 5 non-existent. 6 They do not have a doctor on staff. They 7 have a doctor who travels the circuit who shows up 8 one day a week. You know, we have mental health 9 professionals up there who swear out warrants 10 against their clients because when they're 11 psychotic they threaten them. 12 That's the type folks that I'm dealing with, 13 and the mental health system has literally fallen 14 apart up there. Even the sheriffs are complaining 15 about the mental health system. And then we send 16 them down, we have raving psychotics that we send 17 down to Georgia Regional because Georgia Regional 18 is full of them. 19 Magically, most of our clients are deemed to 20 be competent to stand trial. Ones where they 21 literally cannot hold a conversation with you 22 because they're so psychotic that they need to be 23 on medication, or they're on the wrong medication 24 which, you know, being in my job I have had to 25 learn several things. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 43 1 I have had to learn an incredible amount of 2 psychology in the last two years, more than I ever 3 thought that I would have to know. I have had to 4 learn a lot about medical -- just medical problems 5 of folks because the vast majority of my folks are 6 disabled that I represent. 7 I have had to learn a lot about child sexual 8 abuse. A lot more than I ever did before, and 9 interviewing techniques. And, you know, all of 10 this will help me when I leave my job because I'll 11 know it, but it's extremely stressful when you 12 leave the job and then you've got to go and read a 13 book so you know what you're doing when you have 14 to represent this person. 15 MS. DEVINE: And so do you have 16 recommendations for us? 17 MR. POWELL: I don't see that there is any 18 way that the system can continue for us without 19 state funding. I mean, I just don't see it. I 20 mean, it's not fair to the counties. The counties 21 don't understand it. It's never going to be 22 politically popular for county commissioners to 23 say to people who are paying property taxes we 24 need to take your property tax money and pay for 25 this person who burglarized your home to have KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 44 1 representation. 2 It's just not -- it's not popular, and up 3 where I am it's very conservative and people don't 4 understand it, and they believe people should be 5 buried under the jail. And I get that. I get 6 that a lot. I mean, it's very difficult to deal 7 with where I am. 8 We need funding and we need adequate 9 resources. I'm not saying that I should have the 10 same amount as the District Attorney's office. I 11 don't handle as many cases, but I do need to have 12 a sufficient number of attorneys and staff in my 13 office to get the job done. 14 If you've ever worked in criminal defense, 15 it's my opinion that it's much more difficult and 16 time consuming to represent a Defendant than it is 17 to prosecute a case in large part because the 18 prosecutors have so many more resources. I mean, 19 they've got the whole resources of every law 20 enforcement agency in the state, especially in 21 their area. 22 Also, when you're a defense attorney you've 23 got -- sometimes it takes a lot of work to figure 24 out a defense because a lot of times your clients 25 don't have one until you can find one. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 45 1 And there is also a lot of time that needs 2 to go into the attorney-client relationship. I 3 think that's the main thing that I miss in this 4 job is I don't have time to develop a relationship 5 with my clients. 6 I tried a murder case last year, which we 7 won by the way, in which I only met with my murder 8 case client for a total of five hours before we 9 went to trial. And that's unconscionable. She 10 wouldn't talk to me because she didn't trust me 11 because we didn't have a relationship. 12 And, you know, when I was in private 13 practice indigent defense made up a large portion 14 of my practice. 15 JUDGE FULLER: Can I ask why you only had 16 five hours? 17 MR. POWELL: Well, because I just didn't 18 have time because I had, you know, 70 other cases 19 I had to prepare for trial. And when you've got 20 70 cases to prepare for trial you can't lay on one 21 when you've got -- you know, I was doing pleas up 22 until the time we did voir dire and when we took a 23 break off of voir dire, I was doing pleas between 24 that time and talking to the DAs about, okay, I 25 know we're in the middle of this voir dire, but KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 46 1 let me talk to you about this case and see can we 2 work it out? Because it's just -- there is just 3 not enough time or hours in the day. 4 MR. DUBOSE: Drew, let me interrupt you. We 5 appreciate all of the information that you're 6 giving us; unfortunately, we have limited time 7 today for everybody, and I think in the interest 8 of time we probably need to move to other speakers 9 and, hopefully, we will have some time at the end 10 of the session for some more questions. 11 MR. TAYLOR: Can I ask just one question 12 here? 13 MR. DUBOSE: Sure. 14 MR. TAYLOR: In listening to you, Drew, in 15 summation, your problems as a Public Defender are 16 Judges, Assistants DAs, DAs, policemen, mental 17 health system, Georgia Regional Hospital, County 18 Commissioners, Tripartite Committee. 19 MR. POWELL: I don't consider that all a 20 problem. 21 MR. TAYLOR: They will not solve all of the 22 problems? 23 MR. POWELL: They will not solve all of the 24 problems. There has always been personality 25 conflicts between people working together, but it KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 47 1 won't solve all of the problems, but it will make 2 it easier for us to do the job and take care of 3 the place that we need to take care of. 4 I mean, right now I've worked on 300 5 felonies last year, and closed 390 of them and I 6 just, you know, I don't know that I always have 7 the time to give to my clients. I like my judges, 8 and I don't have a problem with my judges, and my 9 judges try to give me the time that I need; 10 however, they are also very proud of the fact that 11 they don't have a case backlog, and they want 12 every case that's indicted resolved the same time 13 that it's indicted. 14 And that's anything from a, you know, a 15 murder, or a shaking baby syndrome case to, you 16 know, the jaywalker. And it's, you know, it's a 17 lot of pressure. I'm not saying that it's all bad 18 pressure. We all have pressures in our jobs, but 19 it's an overwhelming pressure. 20 MR. DUBOSE: Thank you, Drew. 21 MS. HOLMEN: Drew, I just want to thank you 22 for what you do and for your dedication and the 23 sort of principle in a very difficult situation, 24 and also thank you for coming here to talk to us 25 about the problems. It's a very courageous thing KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 48 1 to do. 2 MR. KURTZ: I suspect spending the day down 3 here with us only exacerbated your problems. 4 MR. POWELL: Well, it does, but you get away 5 for important things like training with the GIDC. 6 MR. DUBOSE: Thank you very much. 7 MR. POWELL: Shall we switch? 8 MR. DUBOSE: That would help. I also want 9 to welcome Karen Wilkes, who has joined us. Karen 10 drove in from Rome today. Karen, we thank you. 11 We appreciate your making an effort to be here 12 with us today. 13 MS. WILKES: Thank you. 14 MR. DUBOSE: We'll hear now from Mark 15 Straughan. We have Judge Grady, and then to Judge 16 Stephens, and Judge Dobb, and Paul, and Charlie 17 Lester. 18 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: We'll be hearing from some 19 of the reporter's students at our next session. 20 MR. STRAUGHAN: I'm Mark Straughan. I've 21 been Public Defender for 20 years in the Oconee 22 Circuit. I started when I first came out of law 23 school. My situation is a little bit different 24 than the last one and probably some of the others. 25 My father was already in practice. We have KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 49 1 been after, I think, two previous attempts. They 2 came to my father and asked him to take it for a 3 while until they found somebody that wanted to do 4 the Public Defender work. He was in private 5 practice, and about four or five years later he 6 was still doing it when I came in, and he is still 7 doing it today. 8 I added my wife to the practice. A small 9 town practice. It's not a big firm. It's all 10 family. We all kind of shared the duties. We had 11 to have that flexibility with each of us doing 12 both, private practice and the contract work. I 13 tried to draw y'all tight figures on some of this 14 stuff, but that's the type of practice we have, as 15 well as us being there 20 years. 16 Most of the people that I deal with on a 17 regular basis have been there -- the DA has been 18 there 16 years, the law clerk three years before 19 that, probation officer the same way. It's a 20 typical small town atmosphere as far as everybody 21 knowing everybody. 22 And it also applies to the people who we 23 represent. I went to school with them. I 24 represented many of their fathers, their 25 grandfathers, I represented their mothers, their KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 50 1 sisters. I've raised some of them since they've 2 been 10 or 11 years old in juvenile court. 3 Repeatedly represented them all the way to doing 4 serious time in the district system. 5 I have the benefit of knowing who they are, 6 where they come from, who they hang out with, what 7 type of family environment they come from. And so 8 I have a little bit different perspective than 9 somebody practicing in Atlanta. 10 When I go to the jails I know half of them. 11 I've known them for sometime, and I pull the jail 12 list out. I go back and pull out the old files on 13 half of them and just add a few more pieces of 14 paper. 15 And so that's the type of situation that I'm 16 dealing with, but it does provide me with a better 17 handle on dealing with folks. It's easier to deal 18 with people that you know than some stranger. I 19 don't have to keep going back to try to get them 20 to trust me. They know who I am, and they know 21 how I've dealt with them in the past. 22 And so my angle is going to be a little bit 23 different, and I have absolutely no complaints 24 from the people that I work with. Sometimes it 25 seems like the peace officers investigate as much KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 51 1 for me as they do for the victim. No conflicts in 2 the discovery. I file the same two pieces of 3 paper in every case. They get the file or 4 whatever information they have to me. And so I 5 come out in a little bit different scenario then 6 many of them. 7 Since receiving y'all's invitation, I tried 8 to give it a lot of thought. I spent a few extra 9 days fishing to have some thinking time. I'm very 10 cognizant of the new Bass pro shop that I'll 11 probably get to before I go home, but these are 12 some of the thoughts that I've come up with. 13 I've tried to be serious on them. I've 14 tried to dig down to the nitty-gritty. I hope I 15 don't offend anybody or any group. I figured 16 y'all want serious proofs, y'all want some serious 17 opinions on there, y'all want candor, then that's 18 what I'm going to try to give you and I'll take 19 any questions or criticisms that y'all want to 20 give me. I have sure gotten a lot over the last 21 couple of years. 22 Dodge County, which is one of my counties, 23 has been a major target, and I'll address that in 24 my final comment. I think the primary issue that 25 we're trying to deal with is how to maximize the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 52 1 theoretical representation that best fit within 2 the confines of a limited budget. 3 That's the real world aspect. We've got to 4 get as much representation of the money that we 5 have and yes funding it will take care of it for 6 the most part. There are things aleady in place. 7 The real issue is putting the money where your 8 mouth is. Getting our slice of the Congressional 9 budget pie. That's the real thing. 10 Everything is already in place to provide 11 indigent care if you just fund it. I think y'all 12 have heard that over and over and so I'm not going 13 to deal with that anymore, but I thought we may 14 need to change the way we think on it a little 15 bit. 16 This is a Constitutional mandate, as you 17 stated. This is something that our Constitution 18 or cases have interpreted to be a part of our 19 society, and it's not the same thing as what you 20 can get for hire, or from a hired gun, but I think 21 the prospective that you ought to be looking at it 22 is what type of indigent defense is required. 23 I've been a lawyer. I've dipped through a 24 few cases and tried to find some that told us what 25 was required, not what we've done wrong on KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 53 1 hindsight, but what they call the Constitutional 2 required, and I only found really six major 3 points. 4 The first of these is the right to counsel 5 doesn't prove until the critical stage. You have 6 a duty to inform the Defendant of their 7 Constitutional statutory rights. You have to make 8 decisions, make intelligent ones. Make sure that 9 he receives a fair trial and an impartial trial. 10 Investigate the case, interview the witnesses, and 11 search for the truth. 12 You must be properly prepared for trial, and 13 if it's a plea agreement he should make an 14 informed and voluntary plea, and be advised of all 15 of his rights, and odds, and chances on this case. 16 And this is all that I could find that the case 17 law puts forth, but I think that it's clear what 18 the purpose is of the Public Defender is to 19 guarantee the Defendant receives the benefits of 20 all of his legal rights; that the wheels of 21 justice match properly in his client's case, and 22 that the concept of due process and protection be 23 fulfilled in each and every case. 24 However, contrary to some think tanks and 25 various newspapers that I tend to know, the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 54 1 responsibility of the Public Defender is not 2 included. The following items: One, I don't that 3 you should attack the system that creates you. 4 Don't bite that hand. Rather the Public Defender 5 should be an expert in and use the system on 6 behalf of his client. 7 Any discord regarding the particular aspects 8 of criminal procedures should be challenged for 9 the purpose of repair and not disruption, and 10 challenged properly through objection and appeal. 11 I think responsibility of the Public 12 Defender does not include using the Public 13 Defender's office as a tool to promote political 14 or social agenda. That is not the Public 15 Defender's obligation. The sole cause of the 16 Public Defender should be justice for his clients 17 on a case-by-case basis. 18 More accomplished should be a search of the 19 truth and his client's guilt and pursue the social 20 agenda while representing the individual clients 21 may pose a conflict of interest to the detriment 22 of the client. 23 Public Defenders have no business taking on 24 social causes like the death penalty. You may not 25 agree with it. Get with some private think tank KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 55 1 and attack it, but that's not the Public 2 Defender's job. His job is to defend his client's 3 interest and look after him. 4 It should not include engaging in frivolous 5 motions and procedures which neither aid or 6 discern the truth or mitigate the punishment, but 7 rather only serve to delay, confuse, increase 8 costs, eliminate others, and put on a dog and pony 9 show to make the client happy. 10 A better lawyer when best is limited time in 11 seeking the truth of the client's guilt, and if 12 the case can be proven a lawyer should invest his 13 effort and minimize his client's punishment. And 14 I submit to y'all those are the only two issues in 15 the criminal case. Everything else works for 16 those two points. 17 The Public Defender should not push a client 18 who denies his guilt with questionable evidence to 19 plead guilty, nor should he encourage an obviously 20 guilty client to go to trial, especially one who 21 admits his guilt to the lawyer. 22 Although this may not happen in big towns, 23 it happens a lot in my circuit. Most of them will 24 tell me whether they've done it or not, and that's 25 a great boon if you are a Public Defender in your KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 56 1 hometown. Of course, it helps to have all of the 2 ins and outs of the case when you go interview 3 them at the jail and call their hand on the first 4 or second story that they come up with. 5 There is nothing wrong with making a guilty 6 plea and receiving a lesser sentence. I have 7 heard a lot of institutions condemning this, but 8 this is the way of the criminal law and it's 9 always been this way. Without it there would be 10 bad lawyers and people sitting in the jails. 11 I remind you, it's not a chess game or a 12 football game. You're trying to discern, first, 13 whether the person violated a statute. That's 14 your first job. And if he did, then you try to 15 give him a fair and just punishment, but it's not 16 some game where they have a right to invoke all of 17 the rules of the chess match, regardless of the 18 truth of the facts or the circumstances of this 19 case. 20 I think too many of them look at it as a 21 game and it's not that. The Public Defender and 22 the Constitutional rights are to make sure that 23 truth prevails, not that you have a particular set 24 of odds on winning some game. I think this idea 25 needs to be thrown out. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 57 1 But a plea many times is the best possible 2 course. It's beneficial to the client. It 3 lessens the plea. It lessens the time he spends 4 in jail. 5 If you have a Defendant who is on probation 6 or parole and can't make bond, or just can't make 7 bond, a guilty plea if he is, in fact, guilty and 8 wants to admit, will avoid a lot of jail time that 9 he is in making in the jail. 10 He may be knocking out a parole sentence, 11 but he won't be knocking out time on his sentence. 12 If he sits in jail for a year, he could be through 13 with a sentence and back out by the time he goes 14 to trial. 15 And I remind many of you that guilt is what 16 it's all about, and if he's guilty and he admits 17 it why jerk everybody around with a trial? Let's 18 do the best we can on a guilty plea and move on. 19 Life is mostly about making decisions and moving 20 on. 21 You can clear out many cases for one plea. 22 Usually the higher crime will set the amount. The 23 rest of them can get washed in for concurrent time 24 and the Defendant can greatly benefit for having 25 to go to each of the counties in the circuit and KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 58 1 working out pleas and getting sent off to prison 2 and coming back and trying his case, but you can't 3 do that with trying cases that you can only do a 4 plea bargain. 5 And so there is a bad stigma on plea 6 bargains. An error in judgment on some people's 7 part. They're good. They are helpful. They're 8 just like anything else. The proper way is the 9 best way to do it. 10 A Public Defender should not forsake his 11 independent professional judgment due to pressure 12 from any other source. He knows his clients, his 13 case and his venue. He knows them best. It is my 14 belief that the Defendant's case cannot be managed 15 from afar. It's just as standardized forms cannot 16 fit any case. 17 Standardized Public Defender tactics and 18 strategies without understanding the facts of an 19 individual case would lead to perfection of form 20 but provide little substantive help for the 21 Defendant. 22 The Public Defender, regardless of which way 23 y'all go, contract or Public Defender system, must 24 remain an independent contractor with discretion 25 regarding the exercise of his duties as they see KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 59 1 fit for the individual client. No two cases are 2 alike. No two clients are alike. And each one is 3 separate and it should be approached on a 4 case-by-case basis. 5 And attorneys don't need direction from 6 Atlanta or any other place telling us how to try 7 our cases. If you have no faith in the lawyers 8 doing it, just like if you have no faith in the 9 judges or the DAs, it's all for nothing. 10 Somewhere along the line there has to be 11 presumptions that people will do their duty, their 12 responsibility. The Public Defender is a vital 13 component of the criminal justice system, just 14 like the judges and District Attorneys. He should 15 exercise the same level of professionalism and 16 dignity as they should. And he should receive the 17 same respect. 18 The faith of the Public Defender is not 19 inconsistent with working within the system. It 20 is time that we put the maverick concept of the 21 Defendant's counsel to rest as far as the Public 22 Defender is concerned. He should be part of the 23 system. 24 Just like you got three parts of government 25 that balance off against each other, but none of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 60 1 them are evil or bad, the Justice Department, the 2 executive branch, legislative, it's a balance of 3 power and they all professionally do their job and 4 pull on each other and push each other to get fair 5 results. 6 And the same thing should work with the 7 Public Defender, and the DA, and the judge. It 8 doesn't have to be personal and confrontational in 9 that regard. They can all be professionals and do 10 their job, and do their best for each client that 11 they want to do, whether it be the state or the 12 Defendant. 13 Regarding the contract attorneys, I know 14 there is a move. You can smell it in the wind, 15 but the Public Defender's office and every county 16 in the station you're going to have essentially 17 run from somebody in a tower in Atlanta. That's 18 not possible in all of these small rural counties 19 at this time unless y'all really want to find lots 20 of money and fund it. 21 MS. DEVINE: Why is that not possible? 22 MR. STRAUGHAN: There is not enough money to 23 buy them all. There is a difference in price 24 between the contract attorneys and the attorney 25 supplying the building, the office, the secretary, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 61 1 telephone experience, utilities, bookkeeper, 2 insurance, copy machine. That all costs money. 3 In our circuit I get $63,000. I don't get a paper 4 clip. That's all I get is $63,000. I'm looking 5 after all of the felony cases in five counties. 6 MR. DUBOSE: How many is that on an average 7 basis? 8 MR. STRAUGHAN: Number-wise? 9 MR. DUBOSE: Yes, sir. 10 MR. STRAUGHAN: I don't know. I exceed the 11 theoretical limit, there is no question about 12 that, but I haven't had more than I can handle 13 thus far, but we have the benefit of being three 14 in my office, and we flex around, and I am going 15 to adress the particular aspect of my system here 16 in a minute, and I'll explain some of that. 17 MR. HOLMES: Just list me the five counties. 18 MR. STRAUGHAN: Montgomery, Wheeler, Lee. I 19 used to have all six, but now Colonel Baker does 20 Pulaski County, and we have another attorney doing 21 juvenile, and another attorney doing misdemeanor. 22 MS. HOLMEN: Are those separate contracts 23 for all counties? 24 MR. STRAUGHAN: All seven. 25 MS. HOLMEN: So you're doing felony, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 62 1 misdemeanor, and everything? 2 MR. STRAUGHAN: For five counties. We used 3 to have everything, but our circuit has found us 4 some more money and we got some more help. It's 5 been slow coming, but there is going to be some 6 counties that you're going to need, at least for a 7 while, to work with contract attorneys. 8 I mean, I personally believe a system set up 9 with the Public Defender's office is going to be 10 the way to go, but you're not going to be able to 11 merge that way immediately. I mean, you know how 12 long they've been working on this project. There 13 are people in jail all during this the time. 14 Somebody needs to deal with it. 15 Things keep rolling on and until a system is 16 set up you're going to need to use them, and 17 they're much cheaper. There is no inherent 18 deficiency in contract attorneys. I would say 19 they receive the benefit of all the other learning 20 that the attorney gets from the other areas of law 21 that you practice in. 22 Business law would give you an uncanny 23 ability in dealing with conversion of payments for 24 real property improvement grants. A lot of times 25 it's not really a crime, it's a contract breach, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 63 1 you know, where somebody that's done that type of 2 work is spotted. Sometimes it's very hard to 3 throw it out and you've got to deal with all of 4 the numbers and supplies in the case to do it. 5 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Can I interrupt you for a 6 second? 7 MR. STRAUGHAN: Yes, sir. 8 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: You made a comment. I 9 wanted to make sure that I heard you correctly. 10 Did you say that you thought that the Public 11 Defender system would be a better one? 12 MR. STRAUGHAN: I think so, as long as it's 13 not micro managed from an office in Atlanta. I 14 think that's the worst thing that you can do is 15 have somebody up here tell somebody what to do. I 16 mean, I favor Calhounism, but experience say that 17 the people down here don't know what's going on up 18 there and vice versa. 19 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Why do you feel it would 20 be better? 21 MR. STRAUGHAN: I think it would get better 22 acceptance. It would be easier to merge it into 23 society. I think you can make it part of your 24 system. They ought to have offices, you know, 25 just like the other funding needs to be the same. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 64 1 The DA has a lot more responsibility than just 2 trying the cases. He's got arraignments, and 3 indictments, and a lot of other stuff that we 4 don't happen to deal with. 5 I think you could get the same service 6 either way. I foresee it coming that way, and if 7 coordinated properly that it would probably be 8 better in the long run because it would get 9 entrenched in society and become something we're 10 used to paying for eventually, and we wouldn't 11 have to be hunting for money. 12 As far as providing legal representation, 13 that's strictly the quality of the lawyer that you 14 hired, and it didn't matter whether he worked for 15 the Public Defender's office or you can appoint 16 one that happened to be in court. If he's serious 17 and responsible and will do the job right then 18 you've got it, and it doesn't matter what tag he 19 wears when he comes in to court. 20 MR. HOLMES: You mentioned about the Public 21 Defender, they might be taking marching orders 22 from Atlanta. DAs don't take their marching 23 orders from Atlanta, do they? 24 MR. STRAUGHAN: No, I don't think they 25 should. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 65 1 MR. HOLMES: It would seem that the Public 2 Defender system operate sort of like the DA 3 system? I mean, DAs have a -- 4 MR. STRAUGHAN: I'm not the lawyer that is -- 5 MR. HOLMES: DAs don't get their marching 6 orders every day from Atlanta, do they? 7 MR. STRAUGHAN: No, but they're responsible 8 through their electorate in their home systems, 9 and I would like to see the Public Defender 10 responsible. I don't think they should be 11 elected. That would be a grave error. 12 MR. KURTZ: Some of our systems they have 13 that. 14 MR. STRAUGHAN: I know, but you've got to 15 insulate them because most of the public don't 16 like criminals. They don't like people that rape, 17 and kill, and sell dope. Most citizens don't look 18 kindly on that. 19 MR. KURTZ: Well, that's something that they 20 think the same down there as they do up here. 21 MR. STRAUGHAN: And I don't think the senior 22 Public Defender in an office should sit there and 23 be telling all of his people how to handle the 24 cases. 25 I mean, he should watch for big mistakes, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 66 1 but whoever is working on it, I mean, if they're 2 not competent they ought not be there anyway, and 3 if they are that's the one that's most familiar 4 with it and he's dealing with it. And as I say, I 5 believe in the case-by-case individual basis on 6 representation. You may have 100, but each one of 7 them are individual cases and you should look at 8 them that way, but I think the man makes the 9 lawyer and not the title of his office. 10 MR. TAYLOR: Or woman. 11 MR. POWELL: Or woman, and I think the 12 contract defender should at least fill the gap 13 until at least some permanent system is installed, 14 but I think if they get in there and be a regular 15 part of government it would be much easier to fund 16 it and keep it going. 17 MR. KURTZ: Do you have a strong feeling one 18 way or the other whether the funding should come 19 from the local level or from the state level? 20 MR. STRAUGHAN: The state level. This 21 gentleman was absolutely right on that. He 22 criticized a small town county commissioner who 23 takes money away from the school kids and give it 24 to represent the bad guys. 25 MR. HOLMES: I remember seeing a list of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 67 1 state funding. Your county seemed to be right up 2 there on top. Is there a political reason for 3 that? 4 MR. STRAUGHAN: I mean, I didn't fall off 5 the turnip truck yesterday. 6 MR. HOLMES: No, I don't mean that. 7 MR. STRAUGHAN: No. We get help, because 8 everybody down there works together. Some people 9 have been around long enough to make connections. 10 MR. LAWSON: Are you appointed by the judges 11 or are you appointed by the Tripartite Committee? 12 MR. STRAUGHAN: The Tripartite Committee 13 worked with a court administrator and the judge. 14 You have to satisfy the judge, you know. 15 MR. DUBOSE: Now, do you have a contract 16 with each separate county or is it just one 17 contract? 18 MR. STRAUGHAN: I have one contract that 19 handles all of the counties. 20 MR. HOLMES: Does that contract come up from 21 year to year? 22 MR. STRAUGHAN: It's a year-to-year, 90 days 23 termination notice. 24 MR. LAWSON: What do you mean by satisfy the 25 judge? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 68 1 MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Lawson said what do you 2 mean by satisfy the judge? 3 MR. POWELL: Well, that's part of the 4 approval process. It's his responsibility to make 5 sure that a competent attorney gets fit in, and he 6 is and should be the watchdog of his court. 7 That's one -- I mean, the judge is not there to be 8 a player. He's there to be a referee and a 9 guardian, and he makes -- I mean, a lot of people 10 forget when they talk about how people are not 11 getting the quality of representation. There is a 12 judge sitting there, and if things are not going 13 right it is the judge's job to say whoa, let's 14 back up and do something else. 15 And he should be in on the deciding who is 16 going to be Public Defender, and I'm an elected 17 officer, an appointed officer, and I believe the 18 Bibb County case of 1957 when Georgia first 19 decided that we have a right to public funds and 20 the Superior Court has the proper means of 21 appointing counsel. I still believe that that's 22 where the proper power flow should come from. 23 MR. TAYLOR: Is your Tripartite Committee 24 assure you the statute, the Chief Judge and 25 Superior Court judge appoints one, and the county KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 69 1 commission appoints one, and the bar association 2 appoints one, and those three then hire and fire 3 and sets standards 4 MR. STRAUGHAN: Right. As long as I 5 remember it, but they took probably nine months 6 working and figuring on who they were going to get 7 to do the juvenile and District Attorneys. 8 MR. DUBOSE: Did they take other bids from 9 other attorneys interested in this position? 10 MR. STRAUGHAN: Yeah. 11 MR. DUBOSE: Is it always low bid or is it 12 other criteria? 13 MR. STRAUGHAN: No. It's all types of 14 criteria. Trying to figure out somebody that will 15 do the best job and can stay within the price 16 range that's going to be serious and do what 17 they're supposed to do. 18 MR. KURTZ: Is the contract year by year? 19 MR. STRAUGHAN: Year by year. 20 MR. KURTZ: And how many cases did you make? 21 Drew Powell said he tried 11 cases last year. How 22 many trials have you had? Have you had any since? 23 MR. STRAUGHAN: A dozen or so. It's hard -- 24 you know, they run together and I don't keep track 25 of the numbers. I mean, it's not important to me. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 70 1 It makes no difference on my pay or anything of 2 that nature. Usually too many records just gives 3 things for people to come back at you anyway. 4 MR. KURTZ: I'm about to second that same 5 area again a little bit further in a different 6 direction. As a contract attorney, of course you 7 also practice other things, or act as a consultant 8 and so forth? 9 MR. STRAUGHAN: I have to have a civil 10 practice, at least, to support the Public Defender 11 practice. 12 MR. KURTZ: What proportion of the total 13 income is the criminal stuff? 14 MR. STRAUGHAN: Depending on my income from 15 the civil side, what I receive from the Public 16 Defender's office makes up one-sixth to one-fifth 17 of my income. 18 MS. HOLMEN: Your firm's income? 19 MR. STRAUGHAN: My firm. It takes about 20 half of the time, but about sixth of the income. 21 For $60,000 you can run an office, pay utilities, 22 and hire a secretary for that. And like I say, we 23 don't get even a paper clip or a piece of paper. 24 It's a deal for my firm. 25 MS. HOLMEN: What do you do about KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 71 1 interpreters? 2 MR. STRAUGHAN: We have some on tap. 3 MS. HOLMEN: That the Court will use? 4 MR. STRAUGHAN: If he's qualified and 5 approved through the system or whatever. 6 MS. HOLMEN: You get them through by motion? 7 MR. STRAUGHAN: We have some on tap. When I 8 need one I let them know. Actually, I call the 9 DA's office and they have contacts with the 10 interpreters and they'll have one down. 11 MS. HOLMEN: But you don't have to pay for 12 that out of your contract? 13 MR. STRAUGHAN: No, I don't have to pay for 14 anything out of my contract. Not in my circuit. 15 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Mr. Straughan, you heard 16 the previous speaker talk about the time that he 17 had available to devote versus the demands. Do 18 you have those kind of issues, or did you find a 19 way to give each case the time it requires? 20 MR. STRAUGHAN: I give each of them the 21 time, and it's slowly tightening up, but I would 22 take the contrary position to what was we see in 23 the paper. I don't think indigent care is in any 24 state of chaos or disrepair. I think it's just 25 the normal cycle of population growing and you KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 72 1 have to keep upping the administrative offices of 2 the government to meet those needs, and this one 3 is lagging behind, but so are a lot. 4 There should be more probation officers. 5 They have a heavy caseload. I mean, everybody 6 could use more. I mean, that's normal. You can 7 go to any office and ask could they use more help, 8 and certainly yes, but if I reach a point where I 9 don't feel like I can do it then I'll holler for 10 help, but right now I'm managing it, but you get 11 better at things after doing it for 20 years. 12 And we're in a friendly circuit where 13 everybody, it seems like, works with me as much as 14 the DA. I can go to any police officer. Any 15 deputy. I can go down to the GBI office and ask 16 for reports. I get what I ask for as far as 17 information and that makes it easy for me. 18 I go to the DA's office and use the 19 discovery. Go up there and they lock me in. I 20 like to go up there during lunch when nobody is 21 around and I go up there and they lock me in the 22 DA's office at lunch and give me my own copy 23 machine, and I go through all of the files and get 24 what I want. 25 I used to copy everything until you get all KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 73 1 of these bar complaints and now I just take a few 2 notes unless I need a memorandum, or an interview 3 or something. I reduced my copy book drastically, 4 but everything is there for me to tap. 5 MS. DEVINE: And how did you cultivate this 6 type of close relationship with the DA's office? 7 Is that a product of your personality, or is it a 8 product of your longevity in the circuit? 9 MR. STRAUGHAN: I would say it's a product 10 of everybody, without a real alienation type of 11 person that I have to deal with. One bad one can 12 spoil, but everybody knows -- they know what's 13 going on and how it works. 14 Like from the District Attorney's 15 perspective. If he doesn't want to try a bunch of 16 cases, and if he wants to see the guilty ones pled 17 out, then he might as well show me his cards and 18 I'll show them to my client and say look, here is 19 the videotape of you selling dope, et cetera, et 20 cetera. This is what's on the table. You don't 21 have to wait 10 days for a trial. 22 Or I may have them two months ahead of time. 23 And I can gather up all of the information that I 24 need and go see my client and let him know it all, 25 and then he can be having some time to think on KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 74 1 what he wants to do. 2 I mean, y'all want to be real about it, but 3 the time somebody filters through the arrest 4 stage, the preliminary hearing, they filter 5 through the District Attorney's office 6 investigating the case and they go through the 7 Grand Jury, the vast majority of them are going to 8 be guilty. 9 If they weren't in all of that other stuff, 10 something is wrong with it. But it has been my 11 experience that it does work, and by the time you 12 get there, if you just play the numbers, most of 13 them are going to be guilty. 14 MS. DEVINE: So people are assumed to be 15 guilty before trial? 16 MR. STRAUGHAN: No. It would be a grave 17 error for a defense attorney to assume innocence 18 on his client. The worst thing that you can do is 19 guard your client's innocence. I would say it is 20 better to look for the worst and if it turns out 21 the other way so much better. 22 MR. LAWSON: Are you suggesting that every 23 defense lawyer should presume his client is 24 guilty? 25 MR. STRAUGHAN: I think that should be in KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 75 1 the back of his mind. 2 MR. LAWSON: I've been wrong for 31 years. 3 MR. STRAUGHAN: No. There is a difference 4 between what the jury does when they consider the 5 evidence and what you should do on your duty, and 6 it's inconsistent and rational thought to know on 7 one hand that the vast majority are going to be 8 found guilty