1 1 2 SUPREME COURT COMMISSION ON INDIGENT DEFENSE 3 4 5 6 7 JANUARY 18, 2002 8 9:30 a.m. 9 10 11 12 13 The Carter Presidential Center Cyprus Room 14 453 Freedom Parkway Atlanta, Georgia 30307 15 16 17 18 19 20 REPORTED BY: DIANE KING, CSR, B-1957 21 22 23 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 125 COLONADE AVENUE, SUITE 1-B 24 ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30331 (404) 344-6225 25 2 1 MEMBERS PRESENT: 2 MR. CHARLES R. MORGAN, Chairperson 3 PROFESSOR PAUL KURTZ MS. PHYLLIS HOLMEN 4 MR. JERRY GRIFFIN REPRESENTATIVE PAUL HOLMES 5 MS. FLORA DEVINE MR. CHARLES T. LESTER, JR. 6 MR. WILLIAM IDE JUDGE STANLEY F. BIRCH 7 MS. AASIA MUSTAKEEM MR. HOWARD O. HUNTER 8 JUDGE A. BLENN TAYLOR 9 GUESTS PRESENT: 10 MR. RON PARKER MR. RON FRIESON 11 MR. MARK GARY MR. ERIC KOCHER, GEORGIA CENTER FOR THE HOMELESS 12 MS. AMY ROSBURG, GEORGIA JUSTICE PROJECT MS. DEBORAH POOLE, GEORGIA JUSTICE PROJECT 13 MS. BECKY CROSE, GIDC MS. MICHEL LEUCKEY-SUNMAN, GIDC 14 MS. ALI MARIN, GIDC MS. SARA SMITH, GIDC 15 REVEREND GAYLE JORDAN, GEORGIA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS 16 MR. MICHAEL B. SHAPIRO, GIDC MR. ROBERT SPANGENBERG, THE SPANGENBERG GROUP 17 MS. MARIANNE MCMILLAN, GIDC MS. DEBRA MULDER, GIDC 18 MS. AMIE MAXWELL, GIDC MS. YVONNE FINNIE, NAACP 19 MS. TAMMY SUN, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS MS. DORIAN MURRY, GEORGIA JUSTICE PROJECT 20 MR. BILL RANKIN, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION MR. RICH RING, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 21 MS. TAMARA SERWER, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 22 MR. ALEXANDER RUNDLET, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 23 MR. JIM POWERS, GFADD MR. CARL ROUIE, JR., NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF 24 PREVIOUS PRISONERS MS. SANDRA WITTY, HOUSE RESEARCH OFFICE 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 3 1 GUESTS PRESENT: 2 MS. LYNN GRINDELL, SOUTHERN JUVENILE DEFENDER 3 CENTER MS. ALEX WHITE, FEMINIST WOMENS HEALTH CENTER 4 MS. CHARLENE MORISSEAU, SOUTHERN CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS 5 MS. MARION CAIN, GEORGIANS FOR EQUAL JUSTICE MR. RON WALKER, ATLANTA MUNICIPAL COURT 6 MS. EBONY JONES, NAACP MR. ADAM JOHNSON, NAACP 7 C. SYNAMON BALDWIN, NAACP MR. C. BRIAN MCADAMS, GEORGIANS FOR ALTERNATIVES 8 TO THE DEATH PENALTY MS. SARA TOTONCHI, GEORGIANS FOR EQUAL JUSTICE 9 MS. CONSTANCE CURRY MS. DEBBIE RHYNE 10 MR. W. CURTIS PERSON, FAYETTE COUNTY NAACP MR. EUGENE E. MILLER, FAYETTE COUNTY NAACP 11 12 PRESENTATION: 13 THE CIVIL RIGHTS COMMUNITY 14 MR. TIMOTHY REED, GEORGIA COALITION FOR THE PEOPLE'S AGENDA 15 REV. JOE BEASLEY, SOUTHERN REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR 16 RAINBOW PUSH COALITION 17 MS. GWENDOLYN FORSTON-WARING, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE GEORGIA ALLIANCE OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN ATTORNEYS 18 MR. RON GARNETT, CHAIR OF LEGAL REDRESS FOR NAACP 19 STATE CONFERENCE 20 21 22 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 4 1 PRESENTATION (CONTINUED): 2 THE CIVIL RIGHTS COMMUNITY 3 MS. AIDA GONZALEZ, COBB COUNTY LATIN AMERICAN ASSOCIATION 4 MS. CARMEN ROJAS-RAFTER, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF 5 HISPANIC BAR ASSOCIATION 6 REV. CHARLES WHITE, SOUTHEAST REGIONAL DIRECTOR OF NAACP 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: We have a really great 3 program for you this morning. We have a lot of 4 important topics to discuss and so we'd like to go 5 ahead and get started. 6 We're not going to be taking a coffee break, 7 but you are free to get up and go outside back 8 here and so forth. You're free to go do so. 9 First I'd like to thank the Carter Center 10 for hosting our meeting this morning. We really 11 appreciate that. And, also, I want to send out 12 gratitude to our Commission member, Flora Devine. 13 She is the one that will introduce our program 14 here this morning, but before we do that I'd like 15 to continue the tradition again of going around 16 the room and introducing ourselves. 17 I'm going to ask Flora to start and the 18 Commissioners will introduce themselves and the 19 guessts will introduce themselves. 20 MS. DEVINE: I'm Flora Devine. I chair of 21 the Georgia Indigent Council, and I'm an attorney 22 with Kennesaw State University in Cobb County. 23 REPRESENTATIVE HOLMES: I'm Paul Holmes. 24 I'm with the insurance company Life of the South. 25 I live in Monticello, Georgia. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 6 1 MR. GRIFFIN: I'm Jerry Griffin, Executive 2 Director of the Association of County 3 Commissioners of Georgia. 4 MR. HUNTER: I'm Woody Hunter from Emory 5 University. 6 MS. HOLMEN: I'm Phyllis Holmen with Georgia 7 Legal Services. 8 MR. IDE: Bill Ide from Atlanta. 9 MS. MUSTAKEEM: Aasia Mustakeem. I am an 10 attorney with Powell, Goldstein. 11 JUDGE BIRCH: I'm Stan Birch, Judge in 12 Atlanta. 13 MR. LESTER: I'm Charlie Lester, an attorney 14 at Sutherland, Asbill and Brennan 15 (Whereupon, the guests were introduced.) 16 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Again, I want to thank 17 everyone for being here, and I'm going to ask the 18 Commission Member, Flora Devine, to please come up 19 and introduce the program. 20 MS. DEVINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm 21 Flora Devine. I represent the Georgia Indigent 22 Defense Council on the Commission. I am 23 chairperson of that council, and I am also an 24 attorney in Cobb County. 25 We are very pleased and proud to have a KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 7 1 focus on Civil Rights regarding indigent defense 2 today. We know that the Civil Rights community, 3 like all of our communities, is not a long list of 4 communities. 5 We are pleased to have representatives of 6 several different Civil Rights communities 7 presenting to us this morning. We hope that this 8 is the beginning of a dialogue as opposed to 9 merely a one time thing, and so I'd like to leave 10 as much time as possible for the panelists and 11 questions and answers with the Commission. 12 I would like for the panelists to have a few 13 minutes to share their thoughts and their 14 perspectives with the Commission before we 15 actually begin with you this morning, and we might 16 as well begin, I suppose, from the end. 17 And what I'd like the panelists to do is to 18 perhaps introduce themselves along with telling us 19 a little bit about their organization, I think 20 that might be helpful, and some of the things that 21 the organization might do so that we'll have a 22 perspective and then any other thoughts which you 23 might have about it, and then we'll have a -- do 24 you want a Q & A? How long do we have for this 25 session, Mr. Chairman? Do we go until noon? KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 8 1 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Until noon, 12:30. 2 MS. DEVINE: 12:30, noon, okay. On the very 3 end is Gwendolyn Fortson-Waring, who is an 4 attorney. She's president-elect of the Georgia 5 Alliance of African-American attorneys. 6 We have Reverend Tim Reed, an executive with 7 the Georgia Coalition for the People's Agenda. 8 We have invited Reverend Joseph Lowery to 9 join us, who is the president. I don't know if he 10 is going to be with us. You are the new Reverend 11 Lowery, right? Okay. 12 Reverend Tim Reed from the Georgia Coalition 13 for the People's Agenda. 14 We have next Carmen Rojas-Rafter. Did I say 15 that right? 16 MS. ROJAS-RAFTER: Yes. 17 MS. DEVINE: Good. Carmen Rojas-Rafter, who 18 is president-elect of the Hispanic Bar Association 19 and also an executive with the Latin American 20 association. 21 And next to her is Aida Gonzales who is with 22 the Cobb County Latin America Association, who has 23 a great deal of information about the day-to-day 24 operational issues associated with that particular 25 community. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 9 1 Next to her is Ron Garnett, who is chair of 2 the legal redress for NAACP state conference, 3 which is here in Atlanta. 4 MR. GARNETT: All over the state. 5 MS. DEVINE: All over the state, chair of 6 legal redress is what it is. 7 And we have next to him Reverend Joe 8 Beasley, who is with the Southern Regional -- who 9 is the Southern Regional director for the Rainbow 10 Push Coalition. 11 You all may think that Joe Beasley looks a 12 little bit familiar. He does. He has been a 13 member of the audience in many of the different 14 sessions that we held with the Commission, and so 15 he is very familiar with the processes which we've 16 encountered thus far for the benefit of the panel. 17 Oh, I'm sorry, I don't know your name, sir. 18 MR. WHITE: Charles White. 19 MS. DEVINE: Charles White. Good to meet 20 you. Did y'all hear that? This is Charles White. 21 And you are with? 22 REVEREND WHITE: The NAACP Southeast 23 regional office. 24 MS. DEVINE: We have from the Southeast 25 regional office Mr. Charles White. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 10 1 REVEREND WHITE: Reverend. 2 MS. DEVINE: Reverend. I should have known 3 that. Reverend Charles White. Pardon me. 4 What we have done for this session is part 5 of the fact finding for this Commission and we 6 have been working for almost a year now in 7 gathering information. 8 We have heard from defense attorneys, we've 9 heard from prosecutors, we've heard from judges, 10 we've heard from professionals in other states in 11 indigent defense about how they have encountered 12 the problems and addressed the problems, and we've 13 heard from experts, consultants regarding the 14 issues, and so this is your opportunity today to 15 get a broad view of what it is from the 16 perspective of the Civil Rights community. 17 We really appreciate that you're here to 18 share your thoughts with us, and who wants to 19 begin? Why don't we do it that way and I won't 20 put anyone on the spot. 21 If you will introduce yourself and a little 22 bit of information about your organization. 23 MR. BEASLEY: I'm going to make a few 24 scattering remarks, they call them. I'm a native 25 Georgian and I'm 65 years old. I'm from little KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 11 1 bitty Fayette County. It was a little bitty 2 county when I was living there, and I want to say 3 and I have not heard this before. 4 Race is driven in this and criminal justice 5 is costly. To form an appropriate defense and 6 resistence to it must be viewed through the eyes 7 of Georgia's racial history. 8 A few of you here can say amen to this if 9 you want to, but that's the truth as I see it. 10 It's popular in the business community to 11 assert that the section of reality relates to 12 crime, these ordinances and laws to undergird 13 these exceptions resulted in a criminal justice 14 system which maintains a brutal system. 15 For a number of months the offensive body 16 has been busy gathering evidence to determine the 17 best way to have poor people have legal 18 representation when they are accused of a crime. 19 I have listened with great interest with 20 what the gentleman categorizes as anecdotal 21 evidence. As a native Georgian, I would like to 22 share with the Commission my perception and the 23 reality of the criminal justice system in Georgia 24 as I've experienced it over the past 65 years. 25 I grew up in Fayette County, Georgia, which KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 12 1 is now one of the wealthiest counties in our 2 state, 10th richest in the nation. 3 I grew up on the Harold Sams plantation. 4 Some of you know of Harold Sams. His son is now a 5 popular physician in Fayetteville. Dr. Sams wrote 6 a popular book entitled growing up in Fayette 7 County, and when I get the time I'm going to write 8 the sequel of that book focusing on the criminal 9 justice system and the viewpoint of growing up in 10 Fayette County. 11 We used to call Dr. Sams Sambo until he 12 reached the age of 12, and then you had to call 13 him Mr. Sams. 14 These were the days Senator Richard Russell, 15 Ellis Arnold, Hermann Talmadge. Hermann, 16 evidently built the Georgia -- the Georgia 17 Governor was the monarchy and in order to occupy 18 the Governor's office claiming it was his own. 19 Some of you all remember that. 20 It originally materialized or he was elected 21 to the office of Governor, of course Senator, and 22 I remember during those days there was an old 23 Republican policy. Now everybody wants to be a 24 Republican. 25 The district attorneys, some of them are KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 13 1 nonpartisan. It is all about politics, pure and 2 simple. The only way that someone could get 3 elected to the higher office was to promise the 4 voting districts. 5 We couldn't vote back then. They would keep 6 the Nigger in place forever. And really it's 7 typical to maintain white supremacy. We feared 8 the police, judges, and the prison system. All of 9 this selectively done to maintain social control. 10 I remember very well when Harold Sams bought 11 the plantation a young black man got involved in a 12 drunken brawl and killed another black man. 13 Mr. Sams simply said to the Court I need to get 14 this grown Nigger back on my plantation and this 15 young man was released into his custody. This 16 young man became my brother-in-law. 17 This same method is still being used in the 18 City of Atlanta in our state in the form of our 19 community courts. There is a process. 20 African-Americans mostly are homeless, are hurdled 21 up under the various police jurisdictions. 22 If you remember we just about closed down 23 every poll in Atlanta as a gesture against the 24 homeless, and so as the homeless the day is 25 coming. And if you all were walking the streets KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 14 1 few days ago you saw in the paper that Atlanta is 2 the meanest city, the third meanest in the nation 3 to homeless people. 4 If you have to go to the toilet and, 5 obviously, you're homeless, you're not going to be 6 able to go to Macy's to relieve yourself, or 7 McDonald's, and so when necessity calls you have 8 to relieve yourself. 9 And so there is our police that pick these 10 people up and then they are charged with public 11 urination, that sort of thing. Just a necessity. 12 And so our paper calls them, you know, bums 13 and hobos and all of that, and the poor black for 14 the most part, they don't own commerce, and so 15 there is no drug treatment for them, but there is 16 some of you know, some of you may not know, that 17 the only real drug treatment that the government 18 depends on to provide is the Fulton County jail. 19 Lock them up and get them no drug treatment, you 20 know, during this period of time. 21 No blacks could be a police. I remember the 22 first black police in Atlanta. I remember the 23 police in Atlanta couldn't arrest white folks. 24 They could arrest black folks, but not white 25 folks, regardless of what the offense was. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 15 1 And what was going on in Fayette County is 2 really part of the whole state, and we got 3 improved farm equipment, tractors and cotton 4 pickers, and so we were no longer needed in 5 Fayette County and throughout the state, and so we 6 were summarily forced off the plantation. 7 And we arrived at Central City, which is 8 where the bus and the train stopped, and when we 9 arrived in Central City everybody started crying. 10 That wasn't bad enough, but physically that 11 created predatory lending very much so even as we 12 speak today. 13 And then in 1972, I think we tracked it 14 pretty scientifically, in 1952 with the changing 15 of the economy white women had to go to work. It 16 was pressure on the economy, and note that we have 17 a full employment economy, and so with white women 18 in the workforce someone had to go, and it was the 19 black man. 20 The black man was forced out of the work 21 force and didn't have any jobs, and we started the 22 war, and we were really clear about it. The war 23 on drugs is really the war on African-American 24 men. 25 And it used to be that public housing was KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 16 1 what we called the housing of last resort. And 2 now HUD says we want a prime tenant, but if you've 3 got a drug record, or somebody in the family has a 4 drug record, or if you've got bad credit you can't 5 stay in the house. 6 They came up with the program. Many of you 7 are familiar with it. It's called weed and seed, 8 and when you were able to reduce a human being to 9 a weed you've got permission to shoot him down 10 dead, but then if you don't do that, or 11 circumstances around him causes him to be in that 12 kind of a situation to lock him up, put him in 13 prison and instead of being in jail and they are 14 becoming job generators in our state, and they 15 become privatized. 16 And you all know that privatized means that 17 every bed is going to be made full. It means you 18 have more prosecutors. And this year one billion, 19 or $15 billion Georgia budget is going to be 20 dedicated to prison, and I would suggest to you 21 that this $45 million for the District Attorney 22 and roughly $5 million for public defense, 23 something is wrong with that picture. 24 And so I think that we should be able to, on 25 the front end, which means give people a good KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 17 1 public defense lawyer then a lot of these people 2 won't be going to jail, but that's your job 3 generator now. It's not just attorneys and 4 District Attorneys and all of that, it has to do 5 with the whole of our society. 6 You all remember last year when Coca-Cola 7 was fined, or rather sued for $92 million public 8 discrimination. All of this is tied together, 9 discrimination. 10 The Life of Georgia, you all read in the 11 paper last week Life of Georgia finally had to 12 admit that they were cooking the books. They had 13 one set of books for blacks and one set of books 14 for whites. And not just Life of Georgia. We 15 need to have the Life of Georgia. 16 The insurance man used to come by with a 17 little book and so forth and then, of course, as 18 we look around at the discrimination, racial 19 discrimination, and Georgia Power, and on and on 20 and on, this whole thing is tied together. 21 And I believe we have 49 District Attorneys 22 in this state and for the first time in the 23 history of the State of Georgia we've got one 24 black African-American District Attorney, Paul 25 Howard. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 18 1 And when Paul became a District Attorney, 2 for the first time in the history of Georgia we 3 had an African-American solicitor, and these are 4 people that make decisions on how these things 5 were disposed of. 6 Now, we have 165 Superior Court judges, or I 7 think 16 to 20 are African-American. I think we 8 have a problem. We have fine judges, but the fact 9 of the matter is we've always, always, helped in 10 terms of race. 11 And so we only have about 15, maybe 20 12 Superior Court judges that are African-American, 13 and so that's something that, you know, the judges 14 that we have in Georgia, this is assembly line 15 justice. 16 And I go to the courts. You see the 17 defendants lined up when they make their plea and 18 you have a lawyer and if you don't I'll appoint 19 one for you, go over there. 20 And these are, for the most part, 21 incompetent lawyers. About 10 or 12, or one has 22 more defendants that they're going to represent. 23 They don't know a thing about the case, and what 24 happens is assembly line where you just keep 25 pleading them, just keep pleading them. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 19 1 And last year there was 13,625 cases heard 2 in our courts, and only 17 -- I mean, 715 went to 3 trial. The other 4,900 or 95 percent they were 4 pleas. 5 And I've been in court and I've seen by the 6 end of these pleas, based upon incompetent 7 representation by those lawyers, I say to you if 8 you have a good lawyer some of the things that's 9 needed to really get to the bottom of your case 10 are the investigators, expert witnesses, and all 11 of that. 12 In Fayette County we have a saying the proof 13 of the pudding is in the pie, and I think the same 14 can be said about how justice is here in Georgia. 15 African-Americans comprise less than 28 16 percent of our population, make up 74 percent of 17 those who are incarcerated, and somehow there is 18 some defect in black folks' character. That's why 19 it's so high. A whole lot of other things. 20 Now we know that between maybe 200 and -- 21 you know, 300,000 Georgians are on probation and 22 the fact of the matter is that probation is not a 23 remedy that many judges support African-Americans. 24 That's a white remedy. And so the system is truly 25 broken and we need to fix it. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 20 1 Approximately 80 percent of 175,000 criminal 2 cases in Georgia was against poor people, and one 3 way we begin repairing the criminal justice system 4 is to start by creating more just systems of 5 public defense so that all the people who can't 6 afford to hire a lawyer can get one. Similar, 7 create a state funded public defense system. 8 Similar states looking at this system 9 created a state funded public defense system. 10 Most recently North Carolina and Arkansas. This 11 Commission heard from Tennessee and Kentucky about 12 their solicitor, Florida has a statewide or state 13 funded public defender system for decades. 14 Adopting a structure similar to that of the 15 District Attorney's office in Georgia is a step in 16 the right direction. Starting with a mechanism in 17 which there are standards governing attorneys who 18 represent blacks and browns and poor people is a 19 step in the right direction. 20 Finally, facing this responsibility of 21 funding public defense with the state where it's 22 always been placed by our constitution and to the 23 counties is another step in the right direction. 24 I have a few questions I think I was reading 25 a little earlier about blacks. There is a rush KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 21 1 now on judges and District Attorneys who want to 2 be nonpartisan. I think we need to stick with our 3 labels. 4 Now, I talk about Talmadge and Russell and 5 all of these who are Democrats, and you know that 6 I've been a straight Democrat and I have been 7 wondering why African-Americans, why we are so 8 Democrat, but we want the best person. 9 Now, I went against the grain and voted 10 Republican, Republicans running for public office, 11 but we need to vote for the best person rather 12 than relying on political labels. 13 We are saying that for the most part we are 14 two parties in this nation, and most folks find 15 that there is a fundamental say about black 16 people, but we can't get too hung up on that. 17 I brought with me, I think I left it, the 18 case of Enron with Lahey and all of that bunch, 19 the largest bankruptcy in the history of the 20 nation, and when we review white collar criminals 21 there is no question that they should be driven 22 under the prison just on the face of it. This 23 person should be under. 24 Even if he were to show up in court all of 25 his money, you know, the judge will give him slack KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 22 1 on prison and he'll send him off for a few months, 2 they'll put him in one of those, what do you call 3 him them -- country club prisons. 4 Our Attorney General is African-American, 5 and Thurbert Baker knows that there are some 6 serious questions about how to administer justice 7 in this state. 8 Well, Michael Thurmond is labor 9 commissioner. Well, the majority of the people on 10 the parole board are African-American why? All of 11 that's true, but nonetheless we don't live in a 12 color-blind society, but we've got some things 13 that we must do and I think that the -- that this 14 Commission must acknowledge the scandalous system 15 of public defense that falls on this notion of 16 formidability. 17 If you're black or you're brown you're 18 dispensable. That falls through this notion of 19 disposability, and I see that this lady is heading 20 in this direction, and I was just going to 21 comment. I just finished. Thank you very much. 22 (Applause.) 23 MS. DEVINE: Well, Reverend -- I'm sorry, 24 Mr. Beasley, I do want you to say a few things 25 about Rainbow Push. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 23 1 MR. BEASLEY: Well, thank you very much. 2 The Rainbow Push Coalition is an organization that 3 was founded by Jessie Jackson back in 1972 and, of 4 course, Jessie Jackson went through with SCLC with 5 Dr. King and I don't know whether he was fired or 6 whether he quit or what. 7 He organized the coalition in Chicago and he 8 really didn't change the manual much. He just 9 whited out SCLC and put Push on there. He got the 10 same basic kind of a challenge about human rights. 11 You know, Jessie ran for president in 1984 12 and he got this Rainbow notion, and then we merged 13 the two organizations about five years ago. And 14 so the struggle goes on. 15 What we're saying is that as 16 African-Americans we think of our struggle in this 17 nation as a symphony. We can describe it in four 18 stanzas. The first stanza was when we was in 19 slavery. 20 The second stanza we got public 21 accomodation. And then apartheid. 22 The third stage is when we got the right to 23 vote, and then the state was struggling about 24 getting the money straight. 25 And, you know, Lincoln was right when he KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 24 1 said that you need to have a capitalization 2 society and so give everybody 40 acres and a mule, 3 and then when Mr. Lincoln was killed and 4 Mr. Johnson decided well, and Congress passed 5 this, by the way, but he says we are not going to 6 give no Negroes their 40 acres and a mule. Let's 7 trade it with the white folks and use it as 8 property. 9 And so we are at this dilemma now of being 10 real Americans when you need capital, and that's 11 what the Rainbow Push coalition is about. Thank 12 you. 13 (Applause.) 14 MS. DEVINE: Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the 15 historical perspective in particular. Who wants 16 to go next? And, of course, you don't have to 17 give us a prepared presentation, but we do want to 18 know a little bit about your organization. Thank 19 you. 20 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Good morning. 21 MR. REED: Good morning. I'm Timothy Reed 22 with the Georgia Coalition for the People's 23 Agenda. Of course I'm not Dr. Lowery and his 24 shoes I wouldn't dare to even try to look at, but 25 he did send me to represent him and our KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 25 1 organization, The People's Agenda, which is an 2 organization that improves the quality of 3 governance throughout the state. And so we're 4 very grateful for this opportunity to share with 5 this committee and to this great panel that you're 6 called upon. 7 First of all, I must say some remarks that 8 Dr. Lowery asked me to give to this committee on 9 indigent defense. First of all, we feel and he is 10 very adamant about this, that this is a new form 11 of slavery. Whenever you misplace poor people or 12 not representing poor people it's basically a new 13 form of slavery, and we even questioned the fact 14 that is it for profit that there are so many poor 15 people are put into jail and tried like hurdled 16 cattle and basically left in prison for many years 17 because of something that they didn't do or not, 18 or didn't do. 19 And he also said if this committee do not 20 rush to a haste to resolve this problem this year 21 we feel that there is -- we all know that this is 22 unconstitutional. You have heard from every 23 expert probably around this country, every 24 attorney, but he said if we don't do anything 25 about this he feels that it is a display of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 26 1 Taliban mentality. 2 And I know those are harsh words, but there 3 is people who are basically in a crisis, and so we 4 want this committee to hurry and make their 5 decision about saving and helping poor people 6 throughout this country, or this state, excuse me. 7 We already know that 90 percent of trials 8 that are being tried are basically about 9 African-Americans. You know, they're being tried. 10 In our office we receive a minimun of ten 11 calls a day asking for some assistance, and we're 12 not attorneys. We are just an organization trying 13 to help people out the best way we can, but we 14 receive numerous of calls saying that they didn't 15 commit a crime, but the prosecution has all of 16 this evidence made against them. On the other 17 hand, they can't afford attorneys, they're 18 basically given some public defender. That 19 defender doesn't have the adequate tools, or may 20 be inadequate themselves. And so I'm just going 21 to read a few words that our committee, criminal 22 justice committee put together. 23 The People's Agenda is related to indigent 24 defense. We feel that it should be overhauled. 25 Should be done away with, basically, by the best KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 27 1 statutes. The best statutes that's assuring 2 justice for the poor; that the poor have access at 3 public expense to competent indigent and legal 4 representation and adequate scientific and 5 investigative resources comparable to those which 6 are available to the prosecutor so that the trials 7 or their trials may be truly fair and not merely 8 as the only method of assuring this illusion of 9 fairness. 10 A lack of structure oversights. We see that 11 what's really existing with the indigent defense 12 is a lack of oversight and findings are the main 13 problems with the Georgia system of indigent 14 defense, which is handled by each of Georgia's 159 15 counties. 16 Each county decides how to provide legal 17 representation to defendants who cannot afford to 18 hire a private attorney. You already know that 79 19 counties uses the panel system to appoint lawyers; 20 60 counties are contracted with more -- one or 21 more attorneys to defend indigent defense cases; 22 20 counties have public defender office staffed by 23 full-time lawyers or who exclusively represent 24 indigent defense who are accused of crimes. 25 In many counties, but especially in the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 28 1 counties that use a contract defender, attorneys 2 handle enormous caseloads. Indigent criminal 3 cases make up only part of their law practice. 4 Because a court-appointed case is paid so 5 little, they are forced to take a large number of 6 the cases to make a living. 7 Also, because of low pay and high caseloads 8 many lawyers are unable or unwilling to spend time 9 investigating a case, calling witnesses, or 10 preparing for the trial. 11 Despite the fact that over 90 percent of 12 people accused of crime in Georgia cannot afford 13 to hire a private attorney, the Georgia State 14 legislature provides only 12 percent of the funds 15 needed for indigent defense. Counties are 16 responsible for the rest. 17 Counties must apply for state funding and 18 all funds are distributed through the Georgia 19 Indigent Defense Council. In contrast to Georgia, 20 36 states provide more than 50 percent of the 21 funding and 26 states provide 100 percent of the 22 funding for indigent defense. 23 Because of these problems and disparities we 24 propose that Georgia adopt a state-wide public 25 defender system by judicial circuits. A public KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 29 1 defender office in each judicial circuit will 2 provide for greater oversight of the quality of 3 legal representation, will allow for sharing of 4 resources, investigators, and secretaries, 5 overhaul costs, et cetera, would attract new 6 attorneys to become public defenders under the 7 training and mentoring of more experienced 8 attorneys and would require that like prosecutors 9 all attorneys defending indigent cases in Georgia 10 be tried -- or be trained, excuse me, in criminal 11 law and would not handle other cases in addition 12 to their indigent caseload. So these are some 13 solutions we are suggesting. 14 First of all, we feel that the existing 15 system of indigent defense, including the repeal 16 of the existing Georgia Criminal Justice Act of 17 1968, and the Georgia Indigent Defense Act of 18 1979, and the development of a new Indigent 19 Defense Act of 2002, that will provide the best 20 and fairest system of indigent defense that the 21 committee, this committee, is capable of devising. 22 So we're basically asking for an overhaul of 23 this current system and we are asking for a 24 repealing of the Georgia Criminal Justice Act as 25 well as the Georgia Indigent Defense Act. And so KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 30 1 I've got 12 solutions I feel that will hopefully 2 help this panel. 3 Indigent defense is a public responsibility, 4 not a private or a professional responsibility of 5 the bar. 6 Indigent defense is a public function and 7 should be paid for with public funds. 8 Indigent defense, like the present 9 prosecutors and the courts, is simply one part of 10 the overall current justice system and it costs no 11 difference from the costs of salaries for judges, 12 prosecutors, investigators, court clerks, and the 13 like. 14 Two, repeal of the Georgia Criminal Justice 15 Act and the Georgia Indigent Defense Act. 16 Three, indigent defense is a state 17 responsibility, not a county responsibility. 18 Four, indigent defense should be funded 100 19 percent by the state. 20 Five, state standards in administration and 21 control of this indigent defense. I won't go into 22 that, but if you would like copies of this I can 23 get you copies. 24 Creation of a one uniformed state-wide 25 program. We're asking for one state-wide program KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 31 1 and to be unified. 2 Establish a regional public defender's 3 office wherever you see fit. 4 Eight, standards to ensure quality of 5 representation. The new quality of representation 6 is criminal cases should be made available in 7 every county in this state. There should be no 8 difference in the quality of representation, 9 whether the Defendant is charged in urban counties 10 like Fulton, DeKalb, or Cobb, or in small rural 11 counties. 12 Nine, adequate assurance independent of 13 counsel to vigorously represent their clients, 14 creating a level playing field. 15 In other words, resources that is equal to 16 those of other prosecutors. Mr. Beasley already 17 mentioned that $45 million goes to the prosecutor. 18 Only $5 million to indigent defense. We feel 19 that's very unfair for poor people. 20 Create a right to post-conviction counsel. 21 And then, finally, abolish of contract 22 defenders. We feel that it's unfair and it's very 23 bias. 24 And that I am a preacher and so I'm going to 25 leave you with a few scriptures. "For the Lord KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 32 1 heareth the poor, and despised is not his 2 prisoners. That's Psalms 69 and 33. Psalms 109 3 and 31 says, "For he shall stand at the right hand 4 of the poor to save them from those that condemn 5 his soul." And then Psalms 140 and 12 says, "I 6 know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the 7 afflicted, and the right of the poor." 8 And so I say that to say you can either be 9 on the Lord's side or be against him. Thank you 10 very much. 11 (Applause.) 12 MS. DEVINE: Thank you, Reverend Reed. Is 13 that a hand on the end, Gwen? Ms. Gwendolyn 14 Fortson-Waring is next. 15 MS. FORTSON-WARING: Good morning. 16 THE COMMISSION: Good morning. 17 MS. FORTSON-WARING: I'm here on behalf of 18 the Georgia Alliance of African-American 19 attorneys. G quad A, as we're lovingly called, is 20 a coalition of the black bar groups throughout the 21 State of Georgia. Contrary to popular belief, 22 Atlanta is not the center of the universe and 23 there are a lot of us around Georgia who practice 24 law and we feel that -- we thought that we needed 25 to get together to have a voice because as KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 33 1 important work as GABWA and Gate City perform in 2 Atlanta, there are black attorneys throughout the 3 state who are also on the front lines and involved 4 in community activities. 5 I'm here on behalf of G quad A because we 6 support the 12 principles which the former speaker 7 enumerated for you. I practice law in Savannah. 8 I'm a sole practitioner. I'm fortunate enough to 9 have a support staff. I moved to Savannah about 10 eight years ago and when I first moved there I was 11 a criminal indigent defense attorney. 12 Chatham County has a court-appointed system. 13 They start you off representing misdemeanor cases 14 and then as you get more experience you can take 15 on felony cases. There are no requirements for 16 criminal -- for attorneys who practice in the area 17 of criminal indigent defense to take appropriate 18 CLE courses. That's a problem. 19 There are no requirements to make sure that 20 you know criminal defense work. That's why it's 21 very important that the professional standards to 22 represent poor people be made uniform. 23 There are also fee disparities. I stopped 24 practicing in this area -- I stopped practicing in 25 criminal law altogether for various reasons, but KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 34 1 you find when you practice and represent indigent 2 defense in misdemeanors if you put too much time 3 in a panel will cut your fee. 4 There are too many disincentives in the 5 system to properly investigate and defend a poor 6 person. One of the disincentives is your fee will 7 be cut. You put in time, you submit it, it's cut. 8 That's a disincentive. You don't get paid until 9 the case is over. That's a disincentive. 10 And so what is the incentive? The incentive 11 is to plead the person out. That's the incentive. 12 That's when you get paid. 13 Now, there are serious consequences of 14 pleading people out that effect the public and not 15 just the bar, and I'm going to use just one 16 example. I'll call her is with. Like I said, I 17 don't practice in the area of criminal indigent 18 defense anymore, but I do take pro bono child 19 custody cases, and I'm in the process of a child 20 custody case for is with. 21 Is with is on probation for financial -- I 22 think it's check fraud because she's poor. She 23 wrote a bad check. She had a court-appointed 24 attorney that gave her first offender status. 25 Well, that's all well and good, but then he KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 35 1 put her on probation and didn't pay attention to 2 the fact that she can't pay the fine. She worked 3 in a grocery store. How is she going to pay X 4 amount of dollars in six months? He didn't care. 5 She got into some type of altercation and 6 was charged with disorderly conduct. She's back 7 in court and didn't get an attorney on a probation 8 revocation hearing. She consented to revoking her 9 probation. She is now a convicted felon, okay? 10 She may not have even been guilty of 11 disorderly conduct. The disorderly conduct 12 ordinance is another whole discussion, okay? The 13 Judge and the prosecutor put her on probation 14 again. Six months, $500. 15 She has three children. She gets child 16 support for one. She's in the process of trying 17 to keep custody of her child, of one child, and 18 that's where I come in. 19 Her water was cut off in August, the 20 sentence was imposed in July, she started -- she 21 got a job, and she was working, and then she 22 developed lupus in November. Couldn't work in 23 November and December. 24 Then the probation officer calls and says 25 you owe some money. And I said go tell him -- you KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 36 1 must show up. Just tell him you don't have the 2 money. At least show up. I'm not representing 3 her. I'm not the indigent defense counsel. She 4 goes up and he says no, you're going to jail. 5 And so now she's looking at where she's 6 going to get the money from, and so she takes some 7 money from her rent to pay the probation folks. 8 And so now she gets behind and she gets a 9 dispossessory, and so she's dispossessed, two 10 months behind in rent, still fighting for custody, 11 no job, and lupus. 12 I called the assistant DA and I said you got 13 to take off some of this pressure. You got to 14 give her more time to pay off these fines. No. 15 Why did she wait until the last minute? Okay. 16 Now, I had to recount the July to December 17 story. She gave me until February 1 to do the 18 community service because surely she can do 19 community service. That's just sitting at the 20 telephone. Lupus doesn't require her to do that. 21 Well, while we were negotiating getting her 22 more time to pay the probation fine so that she 23 doesn't sit in jail for six months on a probation 24 because she can't pay the probation fine, she has 25 an aneurysm and has surgery. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 37 1 And so now they've given her until March 2 4th. I'm not getting paid for that. There is no 3 provision in the indigent defense system for her 4 to get adequate representation to help her through 5 these various cracks in the justice system, but if 6 there were what would be my incentive? My 7 incentive would be to get in and get out. 8 I was once appointed to a case two days 9 before the probation revocation hearing which was 10 scheduled on the same day as his suspended license 11 fine. Two days before. I called up the ADA and I 12 said look, he's on first offender status -- and I 13 don't know if you all know about first offender, 14 but if you successfully complete first offender 15 status it's as if you never had a felony 16 conviction. You become an important member in 17 society. You have voting rights, and so it was 18 always very important to me to fight to keep 19 folks' first offender status. 20 This man was arrested for driving with a 21 suspended license. He was a Mexican person, poor, 22 and he had some problems with his California 23 license. I went to the Recorder's Court Judge and 24 I said look, I just got appointed two days ago. 25 Can you give me 30 days? I think I might be able KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 38 1 to clear this up, protect his status. He said 2 sure. 3 Same day, mind you, I go upstairs to 4 Superior Court and I talked to the DA from the day 5 before. The DA's incentive, if you're a criminal 6 defense attorney, is to plea out early so that 7 they don't have to do as much work, okay? 8 They give you the best deal if you plea your 9 client out early. The longer you take, the more 10 time you take, the DA ups the plea, ups the 11 penalty. Because they're angry. They have to do 12 more work, and so now the plea is going to get 13 bigger, okay? 14 And so there is another disincentive for 15 criminal defense attorneys to prolong the case. 16 You're really doing your client a disservice if 17 they're really guilty, if there is evidence. I 18 mean, if you know that you might not go to trial 19 you've got to get in early enough and get the best 20 plea because they will take those offers off the 21 table the longer you make them put time into the 22 case. 23 We went up to Superior Court. I asked the 24 Superior Court Judge, who happened to be a black 25 Judge and this is not a racial thing, for 30 days. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 39 1 A suspended license. He denied it. 2 I had to sit there. His first offender 3 status was revoked. He's now a convicted felon. 4 Here is another person of color who cannot vote. 5 The criminal justice system has to be more 6 uniform. There has to be parity of resources 7 between District Attorneys and those who represent 8 the poor. The consequences are homelessness, 9 people who cannot vote who lose their Civil 10 Rights, future litigation because poor people and 11 black people are really being displaced by the 12 system, and also increased overcrowding in 13 prisons. 14 Please look at the reforms that have been 15 suggested and take it to heart that those of us 16 who are out there need the assistance of this 17 commission to require competency. And, I mean, 18 even if you don't require a specialty in criminal 19 law, require that attorneys who do this take CLEs 20 in criminal law. 21 I mean, that seems like a no-brainer, but 22 that's not a requirement. Thank you. 23 (Applause.) 24 MS. DEVINE: Thank you, Ms. Fortson-Waring, 25 president-elect of the Georgia Association of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 40 1 African-American Attorneys. There is more time. 2 Carmen. 3 MS. ROJAS-RAFTER: We're going to do this as 4 a tag team to save some time here. I'm Carmen 5 Rojas-Rafter and I am director of family services 6 at the Latin American Association, and also staff 7 attorney. 8 The only staff attorney that handles civil 9 matters. The only other two attorneys that we 10 have do immigration law, and this is Aida 11 Gonzalez. 12 MS. GONZALEZ: I'm the director for the Cobb 13 services, Latin American Association, and I have 14 an accent, she doesn't. 15 MS. ROJAS-RAFTER: Basically, I'd like to 16 start off with letting you know what we do. We 17 are a non-profit organization in the Atlanta area, 18 but we are spanning statewide. Our central office 19 is located on Buford Highway, and we have 20 satellite offices in Marietta, Cobb, 21 Lawrenceville, and Gwinnett, and our newest office 22 is in Clayton County and in Forest Park. 23 The basic service that we provide is social 24 services with a holistic approach. In other 25 words, we try and take care of our clients with KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 41 1 cultural and linguistic appropriateness. 2 Most of our clients are, of course, as you 3 can imagine, they're Latinos, and we actually get 4 Latinos coming not just from the State of Georgia, 5 but also from Alabama, South Carolina, North 6 Carolina, and Florida. 7 And the staff attorney, the only one that 8 deals with the civil issues we, in family 9 services, we get an array of issues and so forth, 10 and so our staff personnel is -- I think we're up 11 to about 57 folks between all of our offices. 12 Our different departments are family 13 services, housing, youth services, we have 14 language services to provide English classes and 15 Spanish speaking classes for the community, we 16 also have an employment department and immigration 17 department. 18 And so when a family comes in they come in 19 with not just one problem, but with many issues 20 and it touches, as the previous speaker has 21 denoted, that one issue will touch the rest of 22 their lives. 23 What I have seen, basically, through family 24 services dealing with indigent defense from the 25 Latino point of view is, one, I see a lot of KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 42 1 traffic citations and hopefully one of those 2 issues, the no driver's license issue, may be 3 remedied, hopefully, with this legislative 4 session, we're hoping. So that would cut down a 5 lot on some of the cases that I see coming in. 6 Some of the other cases are the DUIs, and I 7 also see traffic, a lot of minor traffic 8 citations, criminal cases that I have to end up 9 referring to the bar. 10 My other role is as president-elect of the 11 Georgia Hispanic Bar Association. We have mainly 12 about 100 members within that bar, half judges who 13 are non-Latinos. And so as you can imagine in the 14 State of Georgia we have very few resources for 15 our population to be able to even get private 16 representation if you can afford it. 17 Now, dealing with the indigent defense, the 18 hurdles that we see is not only language barriers, 19 which is huge in the state, we also see cultural 20 misunderstandings. You know, why were you doing 21 this, you know? And it could be something that is 22 unique to our culture that is all right for the 23 countries that we're coming from. 24 The other issues that we're seeing is fear, 25 extreme, high fear of the government. And when KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 43 1 you're coming from some of these oppressive 2 governments and dictatorships in your country, and 3 you're coming into the land of the free to try and 4 make a better life for your family, you're going 5 to have your prejudices that you come with, fear 6 of the government and fear of individuals 7 representing the government. 8 And so there is -- there is a fear and a 9 tendency to actually come to the court system or 10 report a lot of domestic violence cases. I 11 represent domestic violence victims, also. 12 Some of the other things that I have seen 13 are the interpreters. The interpreters now in the 14 State of Georgia, thank God we do have an 15 interpreter rule where they have to be certified 16 and actually go through testing. 17 We were having aunts, uncles, brothers and 18 sisters who just learned English, children 10, 11, 19 12-year-old children who should be in school being 20 used as interpreters in the court systems for 21 their families. 22 The interpreters are there, but they 23 translate exactly what is being said, and they are 24 just at the proceeding. 25 And so you can imagine an attorney who is KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 44 1 given a case doesn't speak the same language as 2 their client and tries to communicate most of that 3 information. If you don't have a person on staff 4 that is bilingual, then you're dealing with family 5 members and, again, children to try and 6 communicate with your client to be able to defend 7 them because the interpreters are not given until 8 you are at the court level, and once you're in 9 court and they just interpret exactly what is 10 being said. 11 They do not understand the legal proceedings 12 and the ramifications that could have on the 13 client. The client, basically, is being told to 14 plea as others, you know, as our colleagues have 15 stated, and they don't understand what that means. 16 With our client population we have another 17 added burden, which is immigration. The INS 18 Limago is what they're called, and there are 19 immigration consequences for even permanent 20 residents, and dealing with criminal convictions. 21 And so that's another layer that most public 22 defenders are not going to know because they're 23 not trained in that area. Some private attorneys 24 who just deal with criminal law do not know the 25 immigration consequences at times, you know, where KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 45 1 they're appointed, and so that's another layer 2 where I will be asking for, besides the CLEs just 3 in criminal law. 4 You know, if you do have a population that 5 you're going to be representing that deals with 6 Latino folks that's another CLE that I think would 7 be appropriate for a population, would be a basic 8 101 immigration. 9 And we have actually had conferences and so 10 forth through the Latin American Association where 11 we have provided Immigration 101 and so, you know, 12 basic law so that you can understand the 13 repercussions. 14 Aside from that, I agree with the majority 15 of what the previous speakers and our colleagues 16 have said and doing an overhaul of the system. 17 I did practice a little bit of criminal law, 18 but in Texas before coming to Georgia, and there 19 are so many disincentives. You know, even in that 20 state, and when I came here I decided I'm not 21 doing that, you know? There is no way because 22 there is not equal justice. There is not. 23 So that's from the point of view of what I 24 see as an attorney at the Latin American 25 Association for the Hispanic bar. We don't have a KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 46 1 referral for the Hispanic bar yet, and the burden 2 has been placed on us as far as coordinating it 3 through the state bar. They do have a referral 4 and we have been trying fiercely for five years to 5 try and get access to that system for our attorney 6 so that the client can call directly, speak to 7 somebody in their own language. You know, even 8 though they're trying their best to learn the 9 language here in the United States, and get, you 10 know, referred to an attorney that may be able to 11 help them in an area. 12 Aida, did you want to say some comments 13 about what you see? 14 MS. GONZALEZ: Sure. Carmen said 15 everything, but I don't have much to say but 16 anyway, no. The one thing, I like to joke, but 17 sometimes I joke about my accent and the reason I 18 joke about my accent and all of that is because I 19 want people to become aware that a language is not 20 learned overnight, okay? 21 Sometimes, because we obligate for 22 interpreters and this and that and whatever, you 23 know, I have had a lot of attitudes, some people 24 saying well you're here in this country they 25 should learn the language. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 47 1 I was born and raised in Puerto Rico, okay? 2 Puerto Rico has a mandatory -- it's mandatory to 3 take English classes in school every day of the 4 school year, every single year of your school life 5 from the first grade to the first year in college. 6 That's probably 13 years at least that 7 you're taking English, but if your first language, 8 you know, you're constantly speaking your first 9 language you're not going to, you know, be as 10 proficient in your second language. 11 And when you come to this country, I have 12 been here for 21 years. I haven't lost my accent, 13 and I still make mistakes in speaking the language 14 sometimes, but so what I want to, you know, take 15 across is that for our Hispanic community to not 16 only deal with the language barrier but to learn, 17 also, how American society and the systems think. 18 It also takes a long time, and so that's one 19 of the things that I wanted to make aware of 20 because what Carmen is talking about and, you 21 know, in the criminal cases or the civil cases and 22 what have you, the clients are made to plea, you 23 know, out, and all of that, and they don't 24 understand. They don't understand. 25 Sometimes we have quite a few calls in the KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 48 1 Cobb County office of our clients asking us well 2 I've been here in jail for six months, a year, I 3 haven't seen anybody. A lawyer came one time. I 4 haven't seen him again. They couldn't communicate 5 in the first place because they didn't speak the 6 language and so forth. And so those are some of 7 the things that we see out there in Cobb. 8 And I'm thinking -- I'm speaking Cobb 9 because that's where we have our office where I 10 work from, and so it is this -- I found this 11 adequately that if you're Hispanic, or you look 12 Hispanic, you must be Mexican and illegal, and so, 13 you know, those are the kinds of things that I 14 find all the time. And when they look at me they 15 don't know what to make unless, you know, until I 16 open my mouth. You know, things like that. 17 We are very different and we come from a 18 different country, and as Carmen was explaining 19 many of them are very afraid they will do 20 anything. They will plead guilty when they are 21 not or whatever just so they leave them alone, you 22 know. And so those are the kinds of things. 23 Also, I want to mention the cases that we 24 have been getting lately with work-related 25 accidents. And, again, the clients don't know KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 49 1 their rights. Even the ones that have proper 2 documentation to work here, they don't know, you 3 know, sometimes what all of their rights are, and 4 imagine it's an added burden for those who are 5 documented who is because they are in poverty that 6 pushes them over here and they are trying to get a 7 job however they can. 8 It's not like they want to break the law 9 like some people think and have told me, and their 10 employers send them sometimes to the doctors, you 11 know, workmen's comp and sometimes they don't go 12 and they don't know that they are entitled to see 13 a doctor. 14 The employers sometimes just fired them 15 because they go back to work and they don't know 16 where to go. And workmen's compensation lawyers 17 in Cobb County, at least that I know of, I haven't 18 been able to find one that speaks the language and 19 so we have to send them to a couple of others that 20 we know, but other times we have our clients come 21 to us that have gone to the doctors and for some 22 reason somewhere along the line either the 23 employer, or the doctors, or I don't know, the 24 insurance, they just want to get rid of them, you 25 know, and not afford the proper treatment, and KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 50 1 they don't know where to go. 2 We had just recently a case of a 20-year-old 3 working in a factory lost -- a machine caught her 4 hand, lost three fingers. She was sent to the 5 doctor but there were some complications and it 6 was that the whole arm got messed up, and they 7 just wanted to come out and amputate her arm 8 because it was cheaper than the treatment that she 9 could get. 10 And so finally she came to us. We, of 11 course, you know, we don't have these kind of 12 attorneys and so luckily we knew one in Gwinnett 13 County that has another attorney who he just hired 14 who works with him that speaks Spanish, and worked 15 through this, and he finally got the workmen's 16 comp to do the right thing and just give her the 17 treatment that she needed in the first place, and 18 they saved her arm. 19 And so, you know, those kinds of things we 20 see all the time. Predatory lending, that is a 21 biggie. Biggie. Biggie. Biggie. Code 22 enforcement violations, landlords, you know that, 23 and the clients are just afraid to say anything 24 because they think they're going to call INS 25 sometimes, and sometimes the landlord threatens KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 51 1 the client, the resident, to call INS, they 2 fabricate lies when they're going to move out. 3 You know, they don't know what to do. They 4 don't have any recourse to defend them on that, 5 and those are the kinds of things that we see 6 every day pretty much in Cobb County, and so there 7 is lot of need for education. 8 MS. ROJAS-RAFTER: The last statement with 9 education, we do have some possible solutions or 10 alternatives and with that working in conjunction 11 with the minority bars. I'm also part of the 12 Multi-Bar Leadership Council, which is a group of 13 many local bars that united together, and one of 14 their committes, in fact, is Joint Projects. 15 And I think the Joint Projects Committee was 16 discussing indigent defense as a project where we 17 can come in and see what we can do to help bring 18 in all of the minority bars, and so I think that's 19 very important for the Commission, or for you all 20 to look at the minority bar associations to see 21 collaborative efforts of what could be done. 22 Also, I think from our point of view, the 23 Latino population, there is a lack of education in 24 the community and there is not enough of us to do 25 it and so we need some kind of assistance with KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 52 1 that. 2 And so if you're looking to overhaul the 3 system, part of that I hope would be in educating 4 the community, maybe doing a videotape, you know, 5 that we could produce together and, you know, get 6 it out to the communities. 7 The Hispanic Bar Association actually has -- 8 we're doing language and the lawyer in Spanish. 9 It's called Ladusias. That would be a perfect 10 form to be able to discuss, the indigent defense 11 system and any kind of things that you all have 12 changed there. 13 Collaborations with law schools, you know, 14 with the third years and clinics and so forth, 15 maybe bring them in to get the training before 16 just the CLEs and things of that nature. 17 I want to thank you for your time, and we 18 really appreciate your efforts. 19 (Applause.). 20 MR. GARNETT: Good morning. My name is 21 Ronald Garnett and I'm the chairman of the Legal 22 Redress Committee for the state NAACP. I seem to 23 be kind of a unique person on the panel in that 24 I'm an attorney out of Augusta, Georgia, and I'm 25 still an indigent defense attorney and I handle KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 53 1 cases everyday, to some extent. 2 Now, as chairman of the Legal Redress 3 Committee the NAACP, as you know, is the oldest 4 organization in the country, or one of the oldest. 5 We have a committee system, and in that capacity 6 as chairman if a problem comes in to the state 7 NAACP office or a local branch that problem might 8 end up on my desk, or I get a phone call or 9 something to try and deal with the situation. 10 In my capacity as chairman of the legal 11 redress it is very apparent, as has been discussed 12 with the state NAACP, that from one end of this 13 picture to another there is a profound distrust 14 for the indigent defense system in the State of 15 Georgia. 16 And I'm not speaking necessarily anecdotal 17 evidence, but the NAACP keeps hearing the same 18 story over and over and over and over again that 19 someone from North Georgia, South Georgia, East 20 Georgia, Middle Georgia, South Georgia, that poor 21 people who encounter the criminal justice system 22 have the fundamental rock solid belief that 23 indigent defense attorneys work with the system to 24 put you in jail against you to plead guilty. 25 The fundamental assumption is your attorney KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 54 1 is working for the other side, and I get that time 2 and time and time again, and I get calls from 3 people saying my son is in jail, my daughter had 4 this problem. I say do you have an attorney? 5 Yes. I have an appointed attorney. I have a 6 public defender. But that's like having a 7 district attorney. 8 That is the fundamental belief. I hope this 9 Commission works to turn that attitude around. I 10 don't think that we can have a fair and -- a 11 perception of a fair system if the people who 12 encounter the system, the poor people who 13 encounter the system feels the system does not 14 work for them. 15 There is a disincentive, as has been 16 adequately stated, to try cases for poor people in 17 this state. It is my -- not my belief, but my 18 understanding and subtle -- it has been subtlely 19 said throughout this state that if you avail 20 yourself of the right to try a case and are 21 convicted, you will get a much harsher sentence 22 than if you go and plead guilty. 23 That's just the understanding. It may not 24 be said up front. I hope I don't get in trouble 25 saying this, but -- KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 55 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Tell the truth. 2 That's the way it is. 3 MR. GARNETT: But you talk to your clients 4 and you say do you want to go to trial or do you 5 want to plead guilty, you have to tell him if you 6 get convicted, no matter what you're charged with, 7 you're going to jail. If you plead -- if you 8 plead to the charge, whether you did it or not, 9 you're either going to get a lighter sentence or 10 you may have a chance at probation, but it is a 11 disincentive to go to trial. 12 We talk about an assembly line justice. 13 It's different when you are on the assembly line, 14 when you're one of the component parts. That is 15 something that you must understand, is that once 16 you're on the front line dealing with these people 17 where you have people who have poor education -- 18 now, I think that, I don't know what the systems 19 are now, but I think that the average reading 20 level for the prison system is a fourth or fifth 21 grade reading level. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's right. 23 MR. GARNETT: You have to go in and explain 24 constantly to these people concerning criminal law 25 that they don't understand. They understand you KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 56 1 go to jail or get out. Either I will be in or 2 out. What's the best way to go, whether they did 3 it or not. 4 And the incentive is to plead everyone to 5 get the system moving. Judges or basic concerned, 6 not all, but a lot of them are concerned with 7 moving their docket. 8 If you have a docket of 50 or 60 cases, and 9 you want to get them disposed of, you are not 10 going to dispose of 50 or 60 cases if you have 10 11 jury trials. It's just not going to happen. 12 The NAACP for the state is looking at this 13 problem and we are starting a monitoring process 14 that will probably start sometime in February or 15 March where we are going to look at the whole 16 system to see how it impacts on poor and minority 17 people. 18 Now, the Savannah system is a little bit 19 better than the one we have in Augusta. I recall 20 passing the bar in Georgia and signing up as an 21 indigent defense attorney. There is no 22 requirement where I'm from that you start off with 23 misdemeanor cases. 24 The first case I got to try was a double 25 attempted murder case. That was a two-day trial. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 57 1 Now, I had to fumble around, read books and try to 2 interview witnesses, and I was able to be 3 successful in that case because I had just started 4 practicing and I didn't have nothing else to do. 5 I had one case. 6 Now, most attorneys, if you have 100 cases, 7 you don't have time to go out and interview 8 witnesses. And practically, I'm not talking about 9 theoretically, practically in Georgia what happens 10 is the state is required to give you the discovery 11 at least 10 days prior to trial. 12 Suppose you're an indigent defense attorney 13 who has been appointed on the case and you get a 14 packet of material 11 days before trial with 40 15 witnesses on it with names and addresses and 16 you're trying to maintain your practice. Do you 17 have the opportunity to go out and interview 40 18 people that the state has plus some that your 19 Defendant or your client has? I think not. 20 The incentive is always there to get the 21 case over with, to get the case pled, to get the 22 case out of the way. 23 In the NAACP the state is looking at the 24 complete system, not indigent defense, but also 25 other things that impact indigent defense such as KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 58 1 this mandatory minimum sentencing that you have. 2 You will be surprised how many people we have 3 heard complain that I was never told if I pled 4 guilty to armed robbery and got a 10-year sentence 5 I had to do the whole 10 years. There was no 6 parole for me. It's called a mandatory minimum 7 sentence. 8 Another thing that people in the assembly 9 line don't necessarily get told or made aware of 10 is that under the policy of the Board of Pardons 11 and Parole, the 90 percent rule. 12 Last week I got a young man who was offered 13 a plea bargain for burglary. It was a residential 14 burglary. Under the rules of the Board of Pardons 15 and Parole, that's a 90 percent sentence. I told 16 him that more likely he will get some time and you 17 will have to do 90 percent of that time. At that 18 point he said well I think I'll take my chances, 19 which is his right, but you must have full 20 disclosure. 21 Another point that I must point out, and I 22 guess I'm wearing two hats now. One, the NAACP 23 hat and the hat of a person who is an indigent 24 defense attorney, is the fact of cutting the fees. 25 We have a system in the Augusta judicial KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 59 1 circuit where you are appointed the cases, you 2 submit your time, and it has the amount of hours 3 on it that you've spent on the case, and then you 4 get back a few weeks -- a couple of weeks later a 5 check that has no relationship on the time, the 6 hours that you put in, and what you were paid. 7 There is nothing that is a greater 8 disincentive as to spend three days in court 9 trying a case, and then going back for sentencing, 10 and submitting your time, and getting a check for 11 $700 when you've been out of your office for three 12 days and you submitted a time for maybe like 13 $2,500, and it just so happened you got there at 14 the end of the fiscal year where they have to 15 balance the budget, where the money has been 16 appropriated, so they have to cut to make the 17 pieces fit. 18 What you have now is a system where a county 19 will budget the money up front. They're going to 20 spend X amount of dollars on indigent defense, and 21 they have to cut to make the pieces fit. 22 This is a disincentive to experienced 23 attorneys who want to do criminal law. And I must 24 say one thing in defense of my fellow indigent 25 defense attorneys. Some are people who don't like KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 60 1 criminal law but are doing it to get a foothold to 2 go to something else. I'm not saying that all, 3 but some aren't in it at all for criminal defense. 4 Some are just over-burdened. 5 When I was in law school, and I've been to 6 seminars, I was told that well if you're going to 7 adequately try a case you can try maybe three or 8 four cases a year. Some appointed attorneys. 9 I have personally tried three cases in a 10 week as an indigent defense attorney. It is not 11 uncommon for attorneys in indigent defense who are 12 appointed to have six, seven, eight cases called 13 for a jury trial on the same trial calendar. 14 With that in mind, even if you are the best 15 attorney in the world, I don't think Clarence 16 Darrell, Thurgood Marshall, Johnny Cochran, Willie 17 Gary all rolled into one could prepare for 10 18 criminal cases given the fact that you get 19 discovery 10 days ahead of time in some instances, 20 and adequately interview witnesses, and prepare, 21 and be ready to go. 22 It is not unheard of in our system in this 23 state for someone to go in the courtroom on a 24 Monday morning, be appointed an attorney, and told 25 to be ready to try that case Wednesday or KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 61 1 Thursday. That's not unheard of. 2 What I'm asking this Commission to do is 3 step back and put yourself in the assembly line. 4 How would you feel if you were accused of 5 something and you walked in and didn't understand 6 the system and someone said go see that guy over 7 there, and be ready tomorrow to determine whether 8 you're going to prison for maybe 10 years, or 20 9 years, or life, because that happens. 10 We are hoping that some real changes can be 11 made. We are hoping that this dialogue will spark 12 an interest so that indigent defense is adequately 13 funded; that indigent defense takes the assembly 14 line out of justice where every Defendant has the 15 fundamental belief that they got the best defense 16 possible because you must have respect for the 17 system. 18 You must have a system where the people feel 19 that a large part of their government is not 20 dysfunctional; that a large part of their 21 government responds to their needs; a large part 22 of their government is at least financial, whether 23 you did it or not; that you can expect if you get 24 caught doing something and get crunched, at least 25 you want to say well I did it, they treated me KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 62 1 fairly, and I'll take my punishment. Not that I 2 was railroaded. I had defenses, but no one would 3 listen. I cry out to deaf ear. 4 The NAACP is just starting to get involved 5 in this. I mean, we hear all the time The Legal 6 Redress y'all are not fast. Well, we are not 7 fast, but we will always be around. 8 And so we are looking at it. We're not 9 going to let it go. We're going to press forward 10 and we are going to come back to you, and, you, 11 and you, and everybody for fundamental changes in 12 the system from top to bottom so that at least 13 there is not the erosion of public confidence that 14 we have seen throughout this state. Thank you. 15 (Applause.) 16 REVEREND WHITE: Good morning. 17 CHAIRMAN MORGAN: Good morning. 18 REVEREND WHITE: Members of this Commission 19 and I, first of all, want to say thank you to my 20 colleagues in the Civil Rights community who have 21 joined me as a part of this distinguished panel 22 this morning. Let me introduce myself again. My 23 name is Reverend Charles L. White, Junior. I 24 serve as director of the Southeast region for the 25 NAACP. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 63 1 The NAACP is the largest and the oldest 2 Civil Rights organization in America today. As 3 director of the Southeast region, I not only cover 4 the State of Georgia, but also the State of 5 Alabama, Florida, and Mississippi, South Carolina, 6 and Tennessee. 7 Here in the State of Georgia I'm happy to 8 represent over 100 branches that cover this state 9 from corner to corner and I and, unfortunately, 10 many people come in daily contact with the very 11 same people we are talking about today. 12 They are the unfortunate persons. They are 13 loved ones who have been charged with a crime but 14 cannot afford to hire an attorney. To you and to 15 many they are just numbers, but these numbers are 16 faces and to many of our branches and local 17 community those faces have names. They are our 18 mothers and our fathers, our brothers and our 19 sisters, they are our aunts and uncles, our 20 cousins and our friends. 21 Too often those who cannot afford to hire a 22 private attorney are subject to second class 23 justice at the hands of ineffective, uncaring, 24 overworked, and underpaid court-appointed lawyers. 25 It is critical that this commission hear from us, KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 64 1 the members of the Civil Rights community. But 2 not only hear from us, but understand that you are 3 charged with a task that after hearing these 4 powerful and compelling testimonies that you must, 5 you must, you must, you must consider immediate 6 action. 7 Georgia's criminal justice system is one of 8 the only sectors in society that has been least 9 effected by the economic and Civil Rights gain of 10 African-Americans over the past five decades. 11 In fact, the operation of the criminal 12 justice system in Georgia has largely undermined 13 or minimized many of the gains that 14 African-Americans have struggled to gain, secure, 15 and maintain. 16 Well, there are many areas in the criminal 17 justice system that require addressing. 18 Improvement in the area of effective legal 19 representation of people who cannot afford lawyers 20 in criminal cases has the most potential to have 21 the most effective, immediate, and far-reaching 22 impact than any other area. 23 Consider this: African-Americans are 24 overrepresented in the indigent population here in 25 the State of Georgia. In relation to our KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 65 1 representation in the general population, 2 African-Americans compose a largely 3 disproportionate number of persons who qualify as 4 indigent. 5 For a historical and more complicated 6 reason, this fact is very evident in other sectors 7 of our society. Be it housing, be it health care, 8 legal representation. 9 Over 80 percent of all criminal cases in 10 Georgia are prosecuted against people who cannot 11 afford a lawyer. A disproportionate number of 12 these people are African-Americans. Secondly, 13 African-Americans are undoubtedly racially 14 profiled into the criminal justice system. 15 We have known for a long time what the 16 nation finally discovered after September 11 about 17 racial profiling. A significant contributing 18 factor to the desperate level of representation of 19 African-Americans in Georgia's criminal justice 20 system is that African-Americans are racially 21 profiled into a system through unlawful traffic 22 stops and other kinds of police contacts, thus 23 leading to then Georgia's overrepresentation of 24 African-Americans inside Georgia's prisons and 25 jail population. KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 66 1 A disproportionate number of 2 African-Americans are incarcerated in Georgia's 3 prisons and jails. While African-Americans make 4 up approximately 30 percent of the general 5 population, we make up more than 60 percent of the 6 prison and jail population in Georgia. 7 The United States has surpassed the mark of 8 over two million incarcerated persons. Over two 9 million. And an overwhelmingly disproportionate 10 number of those two million people are 11 African-Americans, people of racial profiling and 12 overrepresentation of -- underrepresentation 13 and -- of African-Americans in Georgia's system. 14 This system undeniably effects our 15 constituents. They are the fallen victims, they 16 are the incarcerated, they are the mothers and the 17 fathers in our community that leave behind the 18 families. 19 If you speak to those family members, if you 20 speak to those friends, and if you speak to some 21 of the convicted themselves they will help you 22 understand that although there is some federal and 23 state standards that they, on the contrary, when 24 they are accused, languish in jail sometimes for 25 months without even having any contact whatsoever KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 67 1 with an attorney or a court. 2 Accused African-Americans are not informed 3 of a right to a court-appointed attorney, and are 4 not informed of how to apply sometimes for a 5 court-appointed attorney, or are even denied the 6 right to a court-appointed attorney even when they 7 request one. 8 Accused African-Americans are forced to 9 represent themselves or discuss resolve of their 10 cases with prosecutors without the presence of a 11 defense attorney or any available legal advice. 12 Accused African-Americans are not able to talk 13 sometimes to their attorney until they meet in the 14 courtroom, often with the result that they are 15 forced to accept a plea rather than to have a very 16 zealous representation. 17 Lawyers appointed to represent accused 18 African-Americans do not conduct any 19 investigation, do not call witnesses most of the 20 time, do not -- do not file motions, do not return 21 phone calls and, in effect, accused 22 African-Americans are not vigorously represented 23 and court-appointed attorneys do not act as legal 24 counsel to the persons they have been appointed to 25 represent considering that African-Americans are KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 68 1 profiled into this system, and that they are 2 overrepresented in the indigent population. 3 African-American communities are more likely 4 to and suffer the most severe adverse and 5 far-reaching consequences of poor representation 6 without vigorous representation upon which -- upon 7 the system. 8 African-Americans have no legal recourse. 9 Illegal law enforcement overreaching 10 African-Americans through racial profiling remains 11 under checked. It's a system that says well, if 12 this part of the system doesn't work, then this 13 part of the system can do what it wants to do and 14 there is no kind of checks and balances. And so 15 we have the illegal searches and then a person 16 then is funneled down this assembly line. 17 Non-violent bail eligible accused 18 African-Americans remain incarcerated prior to 19 trial in county jails. Disproportionate charging 20 of Georgia's prosecutors and disproportionate 21 sentencings of African-Americans by judges are 22 left unchallenged. Non-violent probation eligible 23 convicted African-Americans remain incarcerated. 24 Many people today in Georgia's prison. 25 Innocent African-Americans are removed as KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 69 1 economic and social contributors from their 2 communities through wrongful conviction and true 3 offenders remain free to continue criminal 4 activity that continue to destabilize our 5 community. It cannot be denied that the problems 6 of racial profiling and overrepresentation and 7 over-incarceration of African-Americans in 8 Georgia's criminal justice system is facilitated 9 by Georgia's system of inadequate indigent 10 defense. 11 These realities then give to 12 African-Americans this underrepresentation and how 13 it impacts other parts of our lives. This 14 underrepresentation of African-Americans and 15 higher education, despite the gains of the past 16 five decades when our African-Americans are locked 17 up in prison, are sitting in county jails waiting 18 to go on trial. 19 Despite these gains that we have made, there 20 are more African-American males in Georgia prisons 21 that are enrolled in institutions in higher 22 learning here in the State of Georgia. The 23 criminal defense system has failed the 24 African-American community. 25 African-Americans also remain KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 70 1 underrepresented at the ballot box. Understand 2 that there is a direct coalition, despite the 3 gains that we have made, and access to the ballot 4 box, and sacrifices that many have made, there is 5 an undeniable connection between those who are 6 caught up in the criminal justice system and 7 denying them the right to the ballot box. 8 And what makes the problem even worse is 9 when you allow the individual counties to decide 10 which kind of system they will use. The people 11 who are disenfranchised, the people who do not 12 have the ability and are not afforded the right to 13 go to the ballot box, they are left at the mercy 14 of those who practice that right. 15 Understand that this negatively effects 16 African-Americans because in counties where 17 funding priorities have to be made, if you aren't 18 voting, if you have no political strength because 19 that's been stripped from you in a criminal 20 justice system, then who gives the priority on 21 where adequate defense for those who are indigent? 22 Who then gives those funding priorities? 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's right. 24 MR. GARNETT: When we don't have the 25 political -- when we don't have that political KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 71 1 power we must understand that the system in 2 Georgia needs the immediate attention. We can't 3 go any further. It needs the immediate attention, 4 and the NAACP and the entire Civil Rights 5 community is employing this Commission, this 6 Commission, to consider the testimonies that you 7 have heard today and to understand that we 8 represent people, not numbers. 9 People who have stories, folks who are in 10 our communities, and we need you to hear their 11 pain and to hear their realities. Thank you very 12 much. 13 (Applause.) 14 MS. DEVINE: I want to thank the panel. 15 We'd like to move to questions and answers, but I 16 have one other person, Mr. Chairman, who has 17 requested to address, briefly, the Commission. He 18 is Mr. Leonard Tate, Brothers Advocating Juvenile 19 Justice. 20 MR. TATE: Thank you and good evening, 21 ladies and gentlemen -- or good morning, good 22 noon, good day ladies and gentlemen of the panel. 23 My name is Leonard Tate and actually I'm a 24 member of just about each organization that has 25 been represented here. I'm proud of the truth KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 72 1 that they spoke and want to say that, with no 2 disrespect with any of them, that even with these 3 profound truths that you have heard from them are 4 really understatements of the reality of what's 5 going on in Georgia's criminal and juvenile 6 justice system, particularly in the area of 7 representation and for y'all to take a lot of time 8 to ask, and do you know who that is? The public 9 defenders themselves. 10 As staff people with bosses who are 11 connected vicariously, or incidentally, or 12 connectedly, or whatever, indirectly, to the 13 system that pays their salary and the prosecutors, 14 and the folks who hob-knob with them, they're not 15 going to advocate too much and too strong for any 16 kind of justice, and they can tell you the 17 nightmares that they as attorneys trying to do 18 their job have. 19 Well, you know what they call them in the 20 system? Public defenders. No disrespect to those 21 public defenders who are trying to do their job, 22 but it's really impossible to do it. 23 The caseloads are too long -- too large. 24 The mechanisms of the justice system are just too 25 cumbersome, and impervious, and just insensitive KING COURT REPORTING SERVICE 73 1 to the needs of these young folks who are being 2 tried. 3 I'd like to tell you another phenom that's 4 going on. There are several phenoms that are 5 going on in the poor community, what is known as 6 the switch concept. 7 The switch concept is you get the one-tenth 8 of one-tenth of one percent of the predators 9 that's out there doing the dirt. They'll get a 10 pretty decent kid, a middle class kid, good 11 family, good grades, ain't done, you know, 12 anything, you know, has a future, or wants to have 13 a future and he hangs out with them just to kind 14 of like be accepted so they don't pick on him at